Thalidomide: Morning Sickness and Nazis Fire - Episode 44

Have you or someone you love every had the misfortune of being pregnant and having to deal with morning sickness? Some women are lucky and they never get it. Some women get it mildly in their first trimesters. Other women are unlucky to have a severe case of it in their first trimester. And some women are cursed with morning sickness through their entire pregnancy.

In the 1950s and going into the 1960s, men returning home from the front lines of World War II were "making up for lost time away from the women of their lives and were proceeding to make lots of babies. These babies would later become known as the "Baby Boomers." As a result of this massive generation addition to the world's population, millions of women were getting pregnant and many were suffering from intense debilitating morning sickness.

With so few doctors left in Europe after the war, something had to be done to get these women some sort of relief for their morning sickness. That relief came in the form of a special medication that essentially eliminated morning sickness in all of Europe.

Thalidomide was touted as being so safe that it was sold over the counter and even the workers at the factory that made the stuff were given free bottles to take up.

This went fine until more and more babies were being born with terrible birth defects. It seemed like one after another, baby after baby was born with disfigured arms and legs or born without them in general. Mortality rates skyrocketed throughout Europe and many were left wondering what what causing all these birth defects. When the science community got together, they quickly drew a line to the common factor among all these birth defects... Thalidomide.

However, the manufacturer of this medication chose to hide the evidence and deny the connection. They opted to ignore the problem and even gaslight thousands and thousands of desperate mothers looking for answers to their problems.

It doesn't help that the men who created this drug were former Nazi scientist who were in trouble for crimes against humanity during the height of the holocaust!

Join Ed and Kara as they explore difficult terrain that is the Thalidomide Generation and how a failure to test one thing thoroughly upended the lives of over 100,000.

For more details and images tied to Thalidomide be sure to check out The Day's Dumpster Fire website. Be sure to send Kara and Ed an email at thedaysdumpsterfire@gmail.com and let them know of new ideas you might have or to simply let them know how they're doing. 

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Transcript

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Everybody. This is a.

Kara: 0:01

In this era. And this is your days. Dumpster fire. Where we don't celebrate humanity's successes. But its most fantastic failures. Man Oh, man, that's a delay. We'll figure it out soon. Editing for the win. I clicked on the, the, uh, little button here to play a shortened intro, and then it's like, four, five. ourselves a rather interesting story. Uh, busy. Uh, everything ranging from the Vietnam War to, uh, are probably what are, are more crazier brought the podcast set up into the classroom where we talked about Titanic. Yeah. And that that that should be a good listen, because we got our kids involved, like our students. We had them get together and actually try to figure out from their perspective what what happened the. It was either that or find the wildest theory they possibly could. I think is what they actually did. But. I think that I think the crazy theories is a lot more fun. Yeah. Some of them came up with some of the more like viable ones, like the whole industry. Fraud claim. I can see that one having an element of truth to it. But yeah, there is there are some also really wacky theories out there. It's that the kids did a pretty good job. The only problem with it is the editing on that took forever. Note to self Don't ever record in a big giant open classroom because the echoes were just horrendous. So like I had to go through and like, edit every single word. I think I finished with 4790 edits. Sick. So I got I got pretty good at editing at the end of that. I'd hope so. Yeah. No, we've had it. We've had a pretty ambitious couple of weeks here with, like the Vietnam War and then Titanic and and all that. So be sure to go take a listen to those, check out the website, do some Safaricom, make sure you hit Instagram and all the fun stuff. But yeah, let's, let's get into it. This is going to be an awkward one for both of us because you and I have, as far as I know, haven't ever been pregnant. Correct. But at least you have kids. So you've had a wife who's gone through it. Yeah. I have. That's. That's. Yeah, because they're exactly like kids. No. They are, but they're not. They are, but they're not. I've had people like I've had dog people tell me in the past like, Oh yeah, I don't have any kids, but I have dogs. And there's like no difference between the two. I'm like, No, no, they're they're pretty different. Yeah, there's there's differences. I could see some similarities, but there's definitely differences as well. Yeah. I'm not worried about my dog waking up in the middle of the night, like changing diapers every night. Instead, my dogs get up in the middle of night. It's crap all over the carpet. That sucks. Sorry. You don't have that problem. No. Oh. Only if. One. Only if they're not feeling well. they're not feeling well, they're pretty good about waking us up in the middle of the night to take them out. Oh, well, maybe my my pitbull is, but not my other Yorkie and whatever buddy is. That's fair. But I think smaller dogs have the mall like everything but but yet. We are. We are going into babies. Eight days. And bait and babies with. We're not going to go too much into how they're made. I'm assuming most people understand how they're made. If you don't Wikipedia it or ask your parents, we are going to go into a rather famous medication. And you know how like you go and you're watching those pharmaceutical commercials where they talk about, oh, this this medication can cure this or that. And then it goes on like this, like this rambling list of just every single side effect known to mankind. I literally just made that joke looking at your notes. So, yes. Yes. Well, in. And the funny thing is that the symptoms that you went into are just what are the symptoms of morning sickness? Oh, cool, Yeah, we haven't even got into the actual medication yet. So, like, this is the first case of, okay, let's put out a medication and let's not test it. Let's just put it out there and see what happens. And lo and behold, there's a lot of problems and the medication that we're talking about is called thalidomide. And it's one of those things you can ask yourself what could possibly go wrong when the developers of this medication were former Nazi scientists that were like fresh out of jail for crimes against humanity. I don't think I would trust it personally. My. My own personal choice, I. I don't know. The way the way I look at it, it's just like, Oh, you failed to put that on your on your background check. That wasn't on the resume. He. Yeah, like. Is that a two page early? Yeah. Well, so what were you doing between 1935 and 1945? Like, it's just blank. There's nothing. There's just. Can you account for the lack of Yeah. Do you have any references? Yeah. References. No, I don't. They're all dead. But yeah, let's go back to 1952. And it seemed like at that time the number one global export was babies. And I don't want to say export. That makes it sound like a human trafficking. I would say the GDP of the world at that time was in the currency of babies. And when you think about 1952, like the proximity to World War Two, it's only just seven years. In fact, this is kind of the height of the baby boom era and. These are our homeboys we were talking about in the midst of the Vietnam War last last time. Yes. Yeah. This is the generation that the folks that fought in Vietnam were kind of like the kids that came out of the baby boomers, so to speak. It. And according to Britannica, Europe suffered between 15 and 20 million deaths through direct combat or collateral damage. So, you know, World War Two really didn't hold back in terms of what killed who. Right. You drop£1,000 bomb in the middle of Dresden, like that bomb is going to be like, okay, we're going to take out soldiers only know I'm taking out anybody that's around. So 20 million deaths is huge. And it's almost like an entire generation of men went on. There's a lot of women and children in there, but they were trying to target military. So when men were returning home in between like 1945 to 1950, well, let's just say if you've been overseas for five years, you've been away from your girlfriend or your wife or whatever, and you barely survive. One of the problems, actually the worst war in human history, you kind of have one thing on your mind, and that's to make up for lost time. So we have that factor going on. The other thing, too, is like after World War Two, especially in America, like work was very plentiful. It was kind of like the what happened with the plague, right? The plague kind of thinned out the population so then workers can come back and be like, Hey, you don't have enough workers. You got to start paying me more. You know, it's kind of why serfdom died. Yeah. Yeah. Because suddenly now there wasn't a nexus of people. And where was I? Uh, yep. So there was as a result, there was an influx of jobs compared to the lack of working people. When work is plentiful. There is a and there is a continent to rebuild. Men are willing to step up their work ethic on the job site, whether it's in the workforce or in the bedroom. So these men coming home to like, you know, coming home to their homes in Europe or America, they're like, okay, I'm ready to work and I'll take one for the team in the bedroom. Like, they will they're they're going they're going to rise up to the occasion. So as a result of a lot more people getting it on. You're going to start seeing more pregnancies. And this is where we get the baby boomer generation. This is the I think this is the generation that is currently like midway through their retirement. Uh, like half of them have retired and now we're waiting for the other half to retire. And, and that, that, that's like financially with Social Security, that's a whole nother animal altogether trying to pay for all that. But we get a lot of pregnant women, especially in Europe. And one of the first signs of pregnancy. In fact, this is how a lot of women would kind of, uh, identify that they were pregnant. That. Mhm. Get an idea. They get naughtier. Now they get an idea. Oh, well, they get the idea primarily from they wake up and then they feel like they have to. And there's a lot. Yes. Like that's how it was with my wife. Like, she kind of had an idea when, like, normally I don't get sick in the mornings like this. And then once you have that happen for like two days in a row, that's when you go to a doctor, you get a test or you. At that time they didn't have the little sticks that you pee on. But yeah, women, women can definitely tell pretty quickly if they're if they're pregnant. But back then, the really big sign was the morning sickness. And they they like scientists still don't fully understand what causes it. They they think it could be like an imbalance of hormones, uh, which is common in the first 2 to 3 months of pregnancy. Blood sugar levels are too low in the morning. They think that could be a thing. Um, extreme exhaustion, emotional fatigue or stress. Like, there could be a whole bunch of things. And what's really weird is that, like, a mother could have their first child and be like, Wow, I had no morning sickness. This isn't that big of a deal. And then they could have their second kid and then it would just be violent puking for days on end. So yeah, when it when a mother has like their second kid, they could just be violently ill. And meanwhile their first kid nothing. Sometimes women, um, could really not get that much morning sickness in the first trimester, which is typically where it usually happens, but then the second trimester and they're violently ill. There's a lot of women out there, unfortunately, that they go from day one to month nine, just sick as a dog. Yeah. And that, that those, those are the ones I felt really, really bad for. And whenever you have millions of women that are pregnant, especially like in Europe, the chances are that you're going to have more and more women that are going to be nauseous to the point where, like, they can't do anything for nine months straight. So, yeah, it's strange. It's really a case by case situation. It's a child by child situation. And and to make it worse, nobody knows exactly what the causes are. And they used to think that it could be like, oh, well, the more physically fit you are, the chances of you having less morning sickness are better up. No, Now you can, you can be extremely overweight or you can be like extremely fit. And it's up in the air on how sick you're going to get. Not to scare the women out there, but I mean, I it's one of those things I think women are kind of like psychologically, they have like a a switch in their head. They're like, okay, it is what it is. We'll figure it out kind of thing. Whereas like me, I'm like catatonic, afraid to throw up. I can't. I get absolutely terrified. I will literally worry myself sick. Think I'm going to throw. Just make it worse. Yes, I make it infinitely worse. Now, here's the part where we're going to start to sound like some pharmaceutical medication commercials up a list of symptoms are long and varied and can also last a long time. So the most common one is nausea, loss of appetite, vomiting, dizziness, headaches, upset stomach, heartburn, acid reflux, motion sickness, seasickness. For most, the condition lasts for the first trimester, for three months or so. The pregnancy. For some, it can last the entire pregnancy. For most affects women primarily in the morning. But those unlucky enough, it can last the entire pregnancy or the entire day and can result in nutritional deficiencies. That that's kind of a big one. If the morning sickness never, never abides, then then there's there is a problem there because nothing is staying down. Yeah, because your body doesn't have that nutritional value to give you or the baby. Yeah. When I and I and I remember when my wife was pregnant with Israel, my first or second one in the there's that myth out there that, oh, careful, you, me, you got to eat for two. Uh, no, it's. It's a lot more than that. You, I hate to say it, but it's kind of like a parasite like you. You've got to take care of that. That that parasite as much as possible. I have a funny feeling that because I do know when I took childhood development in education that first trimester, the woman's immune system is going haywire because there is a foreign object. Growing inside of her. And that immune system is doing everything that it can to attack whatever this foreign object is. And and I, I mean, I'm not a doctor. I'm just throwing it out there. I think that may have something to do with it, because after the first trimester, the body's like, fine, guess you're going to be here for like six more months. It may have something to do with that, but all I know is that in the late forties and fifties, there was a demand from women for a solution to this morning sickness issue. Uh, the cases of morning sickness are a lot less if, you know, there's, say, 500,000 women. But when you've got millions of pregnant women, the cases of more extreme morning sickness go up. And so it's yeah, it's an entirely different thing. When the proportion goes up. 5% of 500,000 is very different than 5% of, say, 15 million, that makes sense. Mathematically, it makes a lot of sense. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And don't forget, the number of doctors is not like Europe. Had a lot of doctors to work with, and they were just getting calls left and right and like, they were being stretched thin. And it's not like. It's not like women are weak, right? These women are not calling up because they've got a stuffy nose. Right. They're not like the hospitals here in Arizona that are just absolutely loaded right now because somebody these left left nostril is stuffy. Like women are not going to call a doctor unless. Unless they can actually function. And so these doctors, especially in Germany, were just getting blown up, figuratively, not not literally. The war is over. So let's not forget that, yes, women were home more than their mans, but they still worked crazy. Long hours. That's the other misconception, is that, okay, you're at home you're sick. What's the big deal? The big deal is that you're home and you're sick because these to be a homemaker back then. I mean, it is a full time job maintaining a house. it takes a lot. I know. Like, my my wife and kids have been out for a couple of days now, and I'm like, I'm trying to clean this house and it's just me. So I'm the only one who is messing it up. And it's still a full time job. Everything from vacuuming to dusting to cleaning the windows, the cleaning, the kitchen and. Their feet up and. And all that kind of stuff. But the men would just go off to their 9 to 5 jobs and then they come home and, you know, crack open a beer and. Yeah. And then they're they're kind of useless for the rest of the night. Meanwhile, women have been working that entire day, and that's not even including the fact that a lot of them had multiple kids that they were trying to. Yeah, it's all right. Trying We're. to maintain. Especially when one person is doing it. Yeah. It's one of those things where like to be a homemaker, period is an unbelievable. It is a career. It is in. Yeah. Yeah. My, my wife has an aunt and uncle. You know, he, he's got a pretty high up position, a making company. And so they're in a position where it's a it's a single source of income. And I remember this aunt, like she had four daughters and they were all just a couple of years apart from each other and just trying to raise them and. Yeah, it is a wild amount of work. So imagine trying to do all that and have an upset stomach and throwing up at the same time. So and it's not like the women could take the day off. Right. They can't go to their husbands kind of like today They can like because a lot of families, you have both husband and wife working and they're working from home. And now I think of. I'm I'm I'm assuming that if the husband is worth anything, then he would be like, yes, honey, get some rest. I'll take it from here. I don't know how common that is. I would hope it's more common than it was in the fifties. Um, but back then, it's not like women got sick time. In fact, if the man got sick, then that was another kid that she had to do this. Something about when men get sick, it is, you know, they could have a head cold and they're on death's door. It's. I don't I'm not saying I'm. I fall in that category, but there have been times where I've had like 103 fever and and all that kind of stuff, and I'm like, I'm done. I'm, I'm laying down. But then there's times where my wife could have 103 fever and she's still, like, working. So it's funny how men are willing to take a bullet. Go to a battle, but there are too afraid to get ahead. doctors did have some treatment options for these women, and some of these are kind of funny. And some of them, I think, actually do work. And some of them are just kind of like really dark. Really, really. Okay. So the number one thing was avoiding acidic or spicy foods. Fair Okay. or. Eat small volumes of food. Okay. Okay. Uh, consumer Ginger. Okay. That I actually do. If I have an upset stomach, I'll. I'll eat some. I could see it. Candy. Ginger. Yeah, because ginger causes the stomach to make more stomach acid, which helps, Mm. like, calm things down. Eat toast, crackers, bananas, applesauce, rice. So basic. It's actually a diet that a lot of doctors prescribe to people with stomach issues. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, they're. They're very basic. Not a lot of wild ingredients. And they supply electrolytes and and sugars as needed. I love this one. Avoid stress. I'll do my best, Doc. Yeah. You've got like five kids running around the house just And then this other one here is. Rest as much as possible. like, don't get sick. This one is kind of a no brainer. Avoid certain odors. Because I you talk to any pregnant woman or woman who has been pregnant in the past and they have very, very specific smells. Yeah. That can set them up. And it's not like it's a, know, a fat deuce in the toilet. It could be like a cucumber smell could trigger it. It could be anything from my wife. It was actually sounds. Certain sounds would upset her stomach. Sting. Yeah, that one's a little different. Um, fluids. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah, that's been around. That would make sense. Yeah. Yep. And yes, even some of the old school doctors are like, Yeah, have a little brandy. Oh, yeah, that was actually really common back in the day. Yeah, especially like during World War Two. It was not uncommon. I want to say it was encouraged that women get completely smashed if they were pregnant, but, um, having, having a little bit of alcohol or a glass of wine here or there. Yeah, By today's standards, it is like, oh my gosh, foetal alcohol syndrome, that. and everybody's going to freak out. But but back then, yeah, it was that was kind of like, go for whatever works. That probably lasted till like the seventies or eighties. Yeah. Seventies. Yeah. I mean, I imagine my grandmother probably did that. Um, not that she drank too much, but it's one of those things. It's like, yeah, it's one of those situations where, yeah, if you do it in moderation, it's probably not too bad. But today we know like, just don't do it, period. Yeah. Yeah. Why Like, was. I'm not condoning that whatsoever. I'm just saying that was. Common practice before. There's a reason we don't do it now. Yeah. Um, take a multivitamin. Cool. This one's another good one. Rinse your mouth. Oh, I like that one. Just give some Listerine, you know? That'll help you. Yeah, I actually. I found this out just recently. Alcohol can be absorbed through your mouth. Okay. So like, if you're drinking, you know, scotch or whatever, uh, like a small percentage of the alcohol that is in that drink will be absorbed through the mucous linings of your mouth and go into your bloodstream. Interesting. And the same thing with your esophagus. Like it will be absorbed the whole way down through the esophagus. course, it hit your stomach and then it goes from there. But I didn't know that. It's it's one of the reasons why, like like if you're driving in, you're possibly. Drunk. Do not rinse your mouth out with mouthwash, thinking that'll fix it. That'll actually make the test come back a little worse. Yeah. And then my personal favorite. This is like the ultimate recommendation. If you want to get rid of morning sickness, stop being pregnant. Yeah. I. I have thoughts that I will keep. Yep. Yep. Men, men, doctors. They, uh, they they really got this figured out. Mm. Mm mm mm mm. Kind of like those medieval monks that said that a woman's uterus is an octopus that moves all around the body. We're we're doing it. We're doing fine. We're doing great. Yep. Yep. Go, men. Um, look at part two. There's a pill for that for many women, just changing diets, resting more and pumping pregnant wasn't an option. Morning sickness was becoming unbearable. Many people in developed nations were being inundated with scientific advancements that could make life easier for everyone. So, like, there's a lot of. I remember watching Nick at night when I was a kid, and Nick at night was cool because they had like these old commercials from like the fifties and the sixties and all these new technologies that would change the world and Oh, yeah. Refrigerators and dishwashers. Oh, yeah. Microwaves. So. Microwaves. The big one was Velcro. Oh, yeah. 1955, we have the microwave, which was 1955. And I love seeing images of this typical housewife with this big giant turkey as she's stuffing it. I love Ill. that. My grandmother tried not smoking, but microwaving a turkey one time. God. I didn't know you could actually turn Turkey into talk. literally drawing on the tablecloth with this turkey. Oh. Television that came out in the late forties. My grandfather's first television was like the size of a chest of drawers, and it had a six inch screen and it had like two channels. It's like a giant piece of furniture and a Yeah, little tiny screen. it was. Yeah, it was literally like, but here is this glowing screen in the middle of the room. And and my uncle remembers that thing and he's like, This is incredible. Like, technology can never get any better. As after this, I'm going to go turn on my 4K television. You know. My personal favorite role on deodorant. Sick. So I think that before there is global warming, I think there was body odor that was. Mm hmm. Really? As much as I want to go back in time and see New York City in the 1880s and stuff like that, I oh, man. Everybody must just stunk to high heaven back then. I think people don't think about that. I think about it a lot. But because. Well, it's like when you go on a camping trip, go on a week long camping trip, done that, where we would go out for like, you know, four or five nights and stuff like that where there's no showers grocery store and like, the whole produce aisle just wilts. Like everything. All the meat is goes bad instantly. The milk immediately turns to cheese. But my wife and I are completely unaware that that we are stinking up the place. polio vaccine, 1952 and so much more. So like we're living in a society where women are like, okay, we have all these advancements. Why can't we figure this out? Like what? What can we do right? If I can microwave a turkey, we should be able to cure morning sickness. survived morning sickness since the conception of pregnancy, no pun intended. But women in the fifties were like, hang on. With all these advancements, where is my cure for morning sickness? Because it seemed like it was getting worse and worse and worse. So usher in the demand for miracle medicines. And and these aren't medicines that we're used to seeing. Like the charlatan stuff from the 1800s and early 1900s were like, Hey, drink this elixir and it will grow your hair back and it will cure your bladder infection. And, you know, it'll fix your heart and it'll help you sleep and it will cure the cold and it'll remove that weird mole on your back and. Ground unicorn horn and snake oil. And you're all set. I was actually in the 1800s going in the 1900s. It's like it's morphine mixed with whiskey, mixed with laudanum, mixed with like. Sounds right. It's just like, no wonder that's going to fix everything. You're just basically drinking fountain all light. Of course that's going to make you feel better. Yeah, There was. There were. But in the 1950s, though, there were medications coming out that were a lot more specific. There were a lot more targeted. There was actually a bit of science that went behind it rather than just like making people drink liquid fentanyl. So these miracle drugs. Medicines. Yes, miracle medicines have been around forever, and most of them were full of dubious ingredients, like I mentioned, like alcohol or sketchy herbs. There was a time where people thought arsenic was a that was like a cure all, like small doses of arsenic. My favorites like Grinder, Mummy Bones. Oh, yeah. Love that one. And usually it's just like dirt or chalk. Yes. Yeah. Because somehow drinking a solution of ground up dead guy is going to help you live longer. It could. Like. We don't know. I guess. Yeah. I mean. I would like to see the data and science analysis behind that. I would love to be like, I don't even have to be like a medical student. I want to go to a university and be like, I need a$13 million grant to go to Egypt, grind up some mummies and see if that helps people live longer. See we're making progress with these ideas. Somebody do this. I'll just pocket the 13 million and then I'll get that far. Okay, well, I'll figure it out, I guess. Meanwhile at. I'll get it peer reviewed somehow. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm out there committing education fraud, so I think most women were skeptical of these cure alls by now, but they all had their wives tales and stuff like that. But they kind of held an exception of the science community. Like the the expectation of the science community is like, okay, we, you, you guys need to figure something out. And they did. And they came up with a drug classification called a barbiturate. Now, barbiturates were designed to treat anxiety, insomnia, seizures, muscle spasms, Alcohol withdrawal is a is a major one, especially for today. But more importantly for these women, nausea and vomiting. Barbiturates is where you I want to say they're quite like a narcotic, like Vicodin and stuff like that. Those are like those opiates are more designed for pain, whereas a barbiturate handles more don't want to say psychological, but it plays more with the brain chemistry to reduce like hyperactive nerves. So like a almost like a muscle relaxer, in a way. The only problem is, is that barbiturates are very addicting, uh, very addicting to the baby as well. So they were running into issues were babies were born with withdrawals like drug withdrawals from barbiturates. And they could tell because like, they would have an elevated heart rate, uh, extreme agitation. They want to breastfeed, you know, they were constipated. Like, if, like, imagine being born and then immediately being addicted to something, which is one of the reasons why, like, they stopped giving a lot of morphine to pregnant women. But, but it is a thing where if a woman is not responding like she's only dilating to a certain part, like to an extent, uh, they will give a little bit of morphine to help with that discomfort before they'll do an epidural, But they're not going to load you up to the point where, like, you're in and out because that could translate in going into the baby and not so much through the placental process, but through breastfeeding. Yeah. That there is a whole field of science just dedicated to what medications and pregnancy go hand in hand. So, like, there's some medications like, yeah, take it. It does. It doesn't affect you at all. It won't affect the baby at all. It'll affect things when you're breastfeeding, but it won't make its way to the baby. And then there's others that are like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't take this because it will mess up your baby, as we will see here. It can cause other birth defects, such as mental emotional issues. You know, when you're taking a medication that can affect your emotional state. What do you think that's going to do to the baby as it's developing? problems. And there's a lot of medications that we still have today where there's just not enough research to indicate like we just don't know. We don't know if it's going to do anything. And that's kind of scary. But when you look at the fact that there's hundreds of thousands of different medications out there, that's know, that's a lot of testing you have to do. So what now? Well, introduce a new drug that would change the world in terms of morning sickness capabilities, as well as a bunch of other issues. So now we're getting into one of these miraculous cure all drugs. The lit amide. Thalidomide was introduced in 1953 by a Swiss company called Ciba Ciba. I B.A. anybody wants to holler about a. Yeah, and I don't. Hiba. I want to say Seba. But. But yeah, well, let's go with Ciba. Um, in 1954, Ciba abandoned the product for one reason or another, and the company was bought up by a German company, Kemi Grunenthal. So it. Yeah. Kimi Grunenthal and I Grunenthal. Yeah, I've heard Grunenthal and stuff like that. I don't know, man. I'm an American. It sounds like Grunenthal. So we'll go with that. And it was founded by Hermann Verte Senior as a subsidiary of the Mauer and Wirtz Company. I love how we're now getting into the time period of economics where, like, we don't know who owns what, Yeah. but. This company owns this company, which is a subsidiary of that company, but that companies in partnership with the subsidiary of the other company, that this company is. And so it's like they know we go through this. Prior to World War One like can't we just make it very linear? But it it's even like that today. Like. Yeah, you break up Microsoft and you're breaking up a lot more than just Microsoft Word. It's it's pretty involved. So the Grunenthal Company was initially set up to research antibiotics, which was a major thing in demand at that time, which, you know, that makes sense, right? People are getting infections left and right still. And people I think we're starting to come into the time period where, like maybe people are starting to become a little bit more immune to antibiotics. And what I mean, immune is that like an antibiotic doesn't actually kill the infection. An antibiotic is a thing that works with your immune system to kill the infection. So an antibiotic just tells the body like, Hey, by beating the crap out of me, you're strengthening yourself up to go take on this bacteria. And there's a very common problem now where people are becoming more and more resistant to antibiotics and that. Yeah, that can that can cause a problem if you don't respond to any antibiotics. But at that time, huge demand. They employed a chemist by the name of Heinrich Muktar more to get it. Heinrich. Clear. Yeah. Really Got a pork allergy when you say that. I'm sure we really a lot of listeners with that moment there. Oh, I can't wait to edit this and just, like, really put the reverb in and just. Yeah. Hit those hit the jack up. The lows really get the base, the whole Mukasey effect in the back of their head. You're welcome, listeners. Yes. We're now down to one listener and that person may be deaf. So there we go. Imagine a podcast for deaf people. I guess that would be transcripts, Lots and lots of transcripts anyways. So Heinrich Muktar had done work on anti typhus vaccine. was hired on the following people as well. So Heinrich moved to was kind of like, okay, hey dude, you're the one in charge. You're like our chief engineer. Okay. Heinrich brought on Martin Steinmuller, who was a medical doctor and which is good. I think it's a good idea to have a medical doctor on board when designing medications for human consumption. Makes sense. You have Hines bomb Cotter. That's a fun one. Yeah. Yeah. Hinds. Bonham Carter. I like that. Yeah. That's a that's a that's a good one. Kind of like Baumgartner. Oh, yeah. So Hines bomb Carter He was an experienced medical doctor and then auto Ambrose And he was an experienced chemist. So it seemed as though like there was some pressure to get something out of the market of sick women. And instead of researching an all new medication, they found the patent for thalidomide. So remember, they bought out Ciba and they were kind of like Rolodex ing through all their patents. And they're like, Oh, what is this thalidomide stuff? And they saw that one of the positive effects was that it could greatly reduce nausea and therefore help with morning sickness. So get this. So now we we are currently, what, 1954 or 1955, they find this patent that was abandoned by its creator. And in 1956 it was put on the market. I feel like there's some steps that were missed. There were steps that haven't even been invented yet. Sick. Now, granted, they did skip some steps, but compared to like today, to do a drug trial, that is, it takes years. And that's one of the the gripes is that like, hey, we could find the cure for AIDS, but it could take 20 years before it comes out into the market because of a case just like this, because they don't. Say. Yeah. Like it takes all these years and tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars and all the testing and permitting and all that kind of stuff. But there's a reason wine and you'll see why here and a little bit. So thalidomide out in the market, it's everywhere. In 1956, when it came out of the market, people just gobbled this stuff up. There was some concern if the medication was their tradition, A tradition is any poison or any substance that could have a negative effect on the development of a fetus. So, for example, if you're pregnant and you're snorting rose or coke or hitting that smack hard, like. Not good for I'm trying baby to talk drug here, but, uh. Smoking that devil's lettuce. I'm boy. married, Joanna. Yeah. No drinking large volumes of alcohol. Alcohol would be a teratogenic in a pregnant woman. So there was some concern, but people kind of just turn a blind eye to it because suddenly women weren't as sick anymore. And our panel of experts claimed that it was perfectly safe and it was tested for pregnant women, which was not true. Thalidomide and its subsequent names, because this is the other thing they did too. And we still do this to this day, like we'll make a medication or company will make a medication and then they'll re patent it under like all these different names. So that way they can lock in that patent for a longer period of time. So there's kontoor gone. That was from 1957 to 1961, Dust Devil, what, 1958 through 62, Soft and on. That sounds weird. I feel like that's something that you would take to help you poop better. Uh, tell addicts and then tablets are. And then you're roasted in. So. Yeah, lots. Lots of different names. Lots Uh. of names. Yeah, well, India is actually more than that as like there was like a dozen of them. It was crazy, and it seemed like every country had a different name for it. I feel like they're starting to run out. I saw one that had risen in and it made me. Yes, I saw that. Resign or something. And I just thought of our students like. Anyway. Like, Man, did you take your computer is today. I heard a. Oh, I hate it too. But yeah, thalidomide was popular because it eased morning sickness effectively and didn't have like hangover effects or withdrawal symptoms, like barbiturates. That's the other thing, too. A barbiturate affects the alcohol receptors of the brain. So if you take too many barbiturates, it kind of you kind of behave as though you're drunk. And when you get up the following morning, you have a hangover because the barbiturates have been broken down. And now it's a toxin that your body's trying to flush out. So it does kind of behave a lot like alcohol without behaving much like alcohol, which is the reason why they use a lot of it. If you're going into like a rehab center for severe alcohol addiction or something of that nature. So the other thing, too, is it appeared that thalidomide was not addicting. Thalidomide was so popular in the late fifties that it was eventually sold over the counter and without a prescription. Now, now we're talking. And then. Like what could possibly go wrong. So at this point, like whenever you say something could go on the market without a prescription, that means you have tested it so thoroughly against every combination of over-the-counter drugs. And you can prove with a high degree of certainty that this will not have an adverse interaction with something else. So, for example, you can take two ibuprofen and drink a martini. It's probably not going to do anything. Whereas if you take two like it in and then drink a martini. Okay, now, now you've got a problem that can potentially stop your heart kind of a thing. So the fact is, is that they just went out and they're like, Hey, this medication can cure insomnia, it can cure colds, flus. I don't want to say cure. It can treat the symptoms. So I should probably be very clear on that. So insomnia, colds, flus, headaches, anxiety, uh, that is one of the side effects of any any anti-nausea medication will make you kind of sleepy. And when you're kind of sleepy, you don't have as much anxiety and anything else that people thought it would be good for treating. So now we're kind of going back to the late 1800s or early 1900s with the whole snake oil thing. No cure. Male male pattern baldness. Yes. Yeah. It'll, it'll. It'll treat ovarian cancer in men Yeah. like. Perfect. Yeah testicular cancer and women like. Yeah. All the things. Yeah. All the all the things. So the drug was so popular and the marketing was so good that it was advertised that the people making it in the Grunenthal plant take it on a regular basis. Oh, sick. So they were just giving it to their employees. Nice. So which. They were probably super stoked about that. Actually, the employees there were like, this is cool. Like, don't give me a pay raise. I'll just keep taking thalidomide. Oh, those are the kind of series like they were probably super stoked. Yeah. Yeah. Like they, they were honestly like, Yeah, I do. I'll take some. It's Great. almost like radium. Yeah. And the thing was, it's just like there was just know, there was millions of people taking this and there were like no reports of anything bad happening first. in 1960, the plant produced 14.6 tons of this stuff. And when you're taking thalidomide, are taking a molecule that is identical but different you can't separate out. That is as we all get into. So, humanity had its first true miracle cure that wasn't super dodgy. was super dodgy. Yeah. So. Part three. Too good to be true. The Grunenthal Company, as well as our four German friends and marketers, Daimler, Böhm Cotter and Ambrose were making a lot of money. Then things were going great until the early 1960s. In 1961, Dr. William William McBride, an Australian obstetrician. And Doctor Vatican Lens. That's pretty good. Better than what I can do. That's good. Yep. Vatican lens. A German pediatrician and geneticist. So DNA had only been discovered not even a decade before. So it was theorized in the 1800s, but it wasn't until the 1950s that DNA was a thing. So having a geneticist that was kind of at the forefront of science at that time made independent investigations into thalidomide and a rash of congenital malformations. congenital disease is basically something that you're born with, like sickle cell anemia. Right. It's if you're born, you know, with like a clubbed hand or clubbed foot or a cleft palate, that's a that's a really common one. Or the face symmetry isn't lined up perfectly. Like that's a congenital thing, meaning that it it formed when you were forming like literally when you were forming and it's like a another name for would be like a birth defect. But the proper term is a congenital malformation. Parents were starting to report all over Europe as well as the rest of the world, that more and more birth defects were happening. birth defects happen all the time, but these were specific types of birth defects they could all be grouped together. So the probably the major one was a limb defect. So babies were being born with their shortened or missing arms and legs or limbs that were fused together to resemble like a flipper. So like their fingers would be fused together, kind of like a member of the, uh, the penguin from the world of the second Batman movie. He had that. Remember how his hands were more like, kind of like flippers instead of actual fingers? that that that's the thing I defects small or missing eyes or other eye malformations. Ear defects. So missing parts of the ears or born deaf facial defects or paralysis of the facial nerves. Heart defects, which are defects in the heart. Perfect. So I think probably the the major one is with the heart defect. And I knew I used to work with a girl in retail. She had a heart defect where you know how your heart has like the four chambers and you've got the two major ones on the bottom. Uh, there is a wall in between there, and there was, like, a hole through that wall. And so, like when her heart would beat not all of the blood or as efficiently was making its way to the lungs. And it's generally not a life threatening thing if it's small enough. But yeah, she had to have open heart surgery when she was really little to get that fixed up. Which I'm sorry if you're a heart surgeon working on like a one year old, you're you're the one driving that Mercedes in the parking lot, I feel like. I have to agree. I'm inclined to agree with that. One of the craziest operations I saw back when the health Channel would actually show like operations there was. Oh, yeah. We used to watch that all the time. Sorry. Oh, yeah, those are great. There is the one where this lady was doing a heart operation on a fetus inside the womb. That's a trip. Yeah. And it wasn't laparoscopically like she opened up. The mother got to the uterus, opened that up, and then they opened up the baby and it's just like. It's impressive. Um. Stupid salary. That that's you know, I if I'm okay with that doctor making a crap ton of money, I'm perfectly fine with that. So internal organ defects, so defects in the kidneys, brain digestive reproductive system, sensory impairment. So obviously, we could get sensory impairment. We weren't born deaf or blind or anything like that. A skeletal structure defect. So damage to the skeletal structure in terms of like, hey, your femur is supposed to be so long or your tibial is supposed to be so long or your fibula is too short and and and all that kind of that kind of stuff, Your your shoulders aren't developed. What was. Who's the kid from Stranger Things. He actually doesn't have a collar bone. Oh, what was his name? He's the one that were kind of, um. Oh, man. I can't remember his name. Yeah, thank God for editing, but, um, I thought it started with a G. Moderato. Yeah. Oh, can you please, Dustin? Yeah. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. Like he doesn't have a collarbone, so it's weird, Like, he can actually, like, bring his shoulders in front of him and make it, like his shoulders can touch. Like. It's really weird. I didn't know you could live without a collarbone, So good on him. Uh. You do. You do your thing. He's actually a really good actor right at. I like him. Yeah, he's. He's. He's really cool. He's. Yeah, he's cool. It was observed that on top of the birth defects, there was a high mortality rate. So 40% died at or shortly after child birth. That's pretty bad. That's a lot. I mean, I would even say 1% is bad, but like 40. Sounds pretty high. Yeah. Yeah. Especially given this time. Like, there should be no reason. Like, why is it that there was a better mortality rate in the 1920s than there were with these women in the sixties? Those who survived had major birth defects. How much was too much? And when when the world got downwind, that there might be something tied to severe birth defects and mortality rates to thalidomide? Everyone began investigating the issue like hardcore and then I mean everybody. I mean, everybody was digging into this thing and they did these very fast studies and they were one. One of the issues with thalidomide is that there was no research on it. There was no real studies. There were some basic tests done on some mice, and there were like, Well, we injected this mouse with thalidomide. Nothing happened. Give it to the people. I'm telling you, Missing steps. Well, and I hate to say it, but that was kind of like standard practice, like, hey, if you don't kill the mouse. Yeah. Miser. And it was believed that mice are vastly inferior beings to a human. And the reasoning was that it's like a canary in the mine thing. If it doesn't kill the mouse, then it can't kill a human. So, you know, that logic checks out like. Yeah. Yeah, that's. Zyklon B. Um, right. So the world just kind of went went crazy into this. And what I mean, crazy is I mean, they were like, communicating with each other. They were sending research reports to each other, their peer reviewing. They were doing all the things that you're supposed to be doing in an academic setting and thalidomide defects and, uh, mortality rates. In thalidomide. Everyone began investigating it. It was discovered that women who took the medication within the initial initial 20 to 30 days stood the highest chance of having a birth abnormality. 20th They caused central brain damage or could cause central brain damage. 21st date. So bear in mind, you're a pregnant woman. You're in your first trimester, so you're like 0 to 60 days into or 0 to 90 days into your pregnancy. And they got so specific, like 20 they could cause central brain damage. The 21st day of your pregnancy. So let's say you're taking thalidomide for your second day that it was prescribed to you. Uh, it could cause damage to the eyes, the 22nd day. So now you're taking it for three days. could cause damage to the ears and face 24 through the 28th day. Right. So now we're going on, like, a little over a week. That's where you could see damage or malformations in the arms and legs and hands and all that stuff. So there was like a period of a week in your pregnancy where if you just took this medication, say, like once in the morning and many people were taking it multiple times a day, uh, if you were just taking it once a day, there was a week in your first trimester where you could be doing unbelievable amounts of damage to your baby. That's kind of wild when you think about it. Like that. That's not a big window and that's not a lot of medication, which is really scary. Women who use the medication after 42 days seem to be clear of potential risks. So they did enough studies to find out that, okay, it's 0 to 42 days. That's where you run the highest risk, especially the 20th through basically the 30th day. Once you hit like 42 days after that, they were like, okay, we're not seeing any issues. Like, it's fine. So taking one dose of the medication during the first month of pregnancy established at least a 20% chance of an issue down the road. So just one of these pills can cause. Lots of problems. It seemed as though Europe, Australia and Canada had the most amount of issues for various reasons. The most common reason is that a lot of countries didn't have a robust food and drug monitoring system like the U.S.. In America, there is this lady and I, I really wish they would make a movie or do a biopic on her. She is an unsung hero in America. Frances Old him. Kelsey Uh, she was a U.S. FDA pharmacologist who started to see the relationship between thalidomide and birth defects. And she caught on real fast and she was a sharp lady like, and she stood her ground and she got a lot of intimidation because as a result of these relationships, she was like, Nope, I am not approving this drug in the United States. None of this will ever make its way into the country. And she got a lot of pushback, a lot of threats, a lot of potential lawsuits filed against her, like it was her against the entire pharmaceutical industry at that time. Yeah, she but she held her ground. She was quick enough to see that like this. This is this is not good. One company, the Richardson Merrill, who wanted to manufacture thalidomide in the U.S. but Kelsey refused to approve the application unless it supplied clinical trial information. So she's like, Yeah, all right, cool. Like, show me the evidence that this is safe. Now we're kind of going back to, like, the leaded gasoline thing where it was, okay, If you're going to say that leaded gasoline is dangerous, then we need unbelievable amounts of proof to show that it is dangerous. Until then, it is harmless. She's kind of taking that approach here. Like if you're saying it's safe, you need to prove to me that it is safe. So Richardson Merrill only supplied testimonials and no real scientific trials. So there were just like, well, talk to these people that we found in Alabama, like. Go reader Yelp reviews. Yeah. Yeah. They Googled it and they saw four or five stars, and they figured that's good enough. That's good enough. Yeah. And then they went back 60 days. Kids. This is why we do our research thoroughly and properly. Yes. Yes. And and don't be afraid to have somebody check it out and be like, this isn't right. There are there's whole panels and universities that that's all they do is they look at like these grant proposals, they look at these experiments, they look at all this stuff to make sure that this is scientifically viable, it is responsible, it is ethically funded, it is ethically implemented like that. That's a that is a entire scene in a university that is going to be dreadfully boring. Because they're reading these research papers that are like 80 or 90 pages long, and they have to try to find like errors in the methodology. So 60 days was the rejection window. So basically she shut down the application for 60 days, and 60 days was a rejection window at that time. So Kelsey kept rejecting it. The application for up to a year before she was able to kill it off entirely in 1961. As a result of this tenacity, she prevented a lot of birth defects from happening in America. And in 1962, she received the president's award for distinguished federal civilian Service from JFK. Nice. Yeah. Sick. Yeah. Like I said, she's she's a pretty interesting lady. And I don't I don't think she gets enough recognition for what? For what she has done. And if it was a guy saying it. I feel like if a man came and said, No, no, no, no, we're stopping it here. Okay? Oh, yeah. Or there'd be some pushback, there'd be a little bit of pushback. But since it's all a woman. Mm hmm. Especially in the late fifties. Early sixties. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pushback back left and right. And it and at that time it wasn't even so misogynistic where men would be like, oh, she's a woman. She doesn't know what she's talking about. It's more like, Oh, she's a woman weakness bowler over and intimidate her and we can get her away. Yeah. And I feel like there is probably a lot of mansplaining going on. So like there was probably some sales rep at this Richardson, Richardson, Merrill going up to her like this guy sold vacuums prior to being a salesman for this company going up to calcium. Like, do you do you even know what a medication is? Like doo doo Oh. doo. Do you know what pharmaceuticals are like? I could just see that going down. Oh, I could do 100%. It just. Kelsey just had to do this. She's like, I have a. And this, you idiot. So, yeah, the reality is that it didn't take long for the world to piece together the fact that this medication, just like any other medication, it can not be a miracle cure to fix all ailments. was kind of like Kelsey that established a fact. And once it like in America, keep in mind, America is the number one superpower. Everybody looked to America. Everybody saw America as the authority figure on everything. And then when America comes out and says, yeah, no, we don't we don't want this in our country, then the rest of the world's a crap. Okay, Uh, that that's a problem. But in the meantime, though, this Grunenthal Company was doing everything in their power in Europe to try to, like, downplay the birth defects. They were doing everything in their power. They were making promotional ads saying that, like, the birth defects aren't really a thing. They were borderline like Alex jonesing it and just trying to gaslight the entire world. And yeah, it is estimated at this time, I think I have it written somewhere here that there was at about 10,000 children that had birth defects associated with this thalidomide. That's pretty bad. Yeah. And and if you see pictures of it and I'll put some on here in the show notes, but like, you see, like these little kids that are trying to write with no arms or they're having to wear like this plastic back brace in order for them to stand up because their spines aren't developed or, you know, they're they're literally missing an arm and a leg and, you know, just just the quality of life of these kids. And a lot of them are still alive today. I think there's 2200 of them still alive today. And it's like a community. It's like a worldwide community. You know, they have get togethers and stuff like that and think we a lot of them grew up, uh, regardless of their arms and legs, issues and stuff like that. A lot of them grew up, got married, had kids, doing fine. Like, that's pretty awesome. I, I'm lucky enough to get married as I am, let alone imagine the uphill battle I would have had if I had, like, you know, no arms or legs. Fins. Yeah, I would swim very well. That's true. You might make the swim team. Yes. Or I would be like a boogie in this kind of float there. Or the penguin from Batman. Or yes, I got to get my nose out longer, but the rest of me has got the physique for. Who played him? Yeah. I think so. He's a good actor. With with Arnold as Mr. Freeze. Oh, no, that that was terrible. Oh, God, I love those movies anyway. Bette nipples. Um, so, yeah. In meantime, Grunenthal was doing everything in their power to kind of patch it up, just like leaded gasoline. Right. They'd like. Why ruin a good thing? Because they're making millions off of this. What? What is part for here? Like, what is happening in the body? this is kind of like a hobby of mine. Lately, I've been studying a lot of, like, how different substances actually work in the body because it's not black and white. It's not easy. It's not like, Oh, I take this medication and this happens. Yeah, it's there's so much more that goes on behind the scenes. So what shocks me is how fast the world was able to put everything together to conclude that thalidomide was the culprit. Yes. Granted, the medication had been out for seven years prior to the first reports of the birth defects. The reality is that once the claims were made, the world concluded pretty dang fast. What the problem was like, they were able to piece it together. This is interesting because at the time there was no real clear rhyme or reason for how the medication affected the unborn fetus. So they came to the conclusion that thalidomide was causing these birth defects, but they didn't exactly know how. And typically speaking, if you're saying that something is causing something, you need to be able to specify how it is given the degree upon which the information spread around the world, it was possible for scientists and table bureaucrats to communicate and take action. This is a time like, yeah, we had under ocean telegraphs, telephones and mail. Today, something like this could be around the world in a day. But even back then it could take a bit of time to transmit, say, like, how do you how do you send 120 page research paper through a telegraph wire? Like, I feel like that would take forever. Many places like the US, England, East Germany and Canada. 1961, the sales of thalidomide had ceased or were well on their way out, with Canada ceasing sales in 1962. Oh, I mean West Germany, not East Germany. East Germany was with the Soviet Union. East Germany, though, never even allowed the sale of the medication, period. Probably because it was under the Soviet control and the Reds didn't want anything from the West, even if it could make life better for inhabitants. This is one of the cases where, you know, being on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain when it fell worked out. Yeah. I mean. I guess. Silver lining. Silver lining. You can't take eat, it. but you don't have to worry about birth defects. Grenoble. But that's a different story. Not all the countries acted fast, though. Spain's drug regulation system was greatly lacking and allowed the sale of thalidomide to take place well into the eighties. western Germany, things took a little longer. This is where the problem all started, because as a whole, the Western nations, as well as German survivors of the war, avoided keeping track of malformed and disfigured babies. The aversion was due to the practice of former Nazi regime keeping close or close eyes on records of congenital defects and people to expedite the Nazi quest for committing war crimes against humanity. So basically, like people kind of like turn a blind eye towards birth defects because it's like, wow, I was probably tied to the Nazis, but that's where I was coming from. That's it. It's ironic that the people who were the first recipients of this medication were, in fact, the most blind to the repercussions. Regardless, though, the drug was outlawed in 1962, even though the drug was banned for the most part in the sixties. The reasons why it caused severe, severe birth defects was elusive. It wasn't until the nineties and going into the 2000 did scientist start to get an idea what was going on. Albeit it's still not 100% confirmed yet, but they have a pretty good idea save a lot of time, confusion and a high degree of potential misinformation. I'm going to try and simplify what was going on in the body when there was both thalidomide and an unborn baby at the same time. In the 1950s, thalidomide was believed to be affecting be effective in controlling morning sickness due to the medication's side effects. Sedation taking the medication had the effect of slowing down the user. The sedating effect thus made the person too tired to feel sick. So it's one of those things where if you have an upset stomach, it's because all the muscles inside your gut and all around all your organs are kind of going crazy. They're kind of doing their own thing. That's where the upset stomach comes from. Once you call them all that down, then you cease being sick to your stomach. It was known to affect nerves. So keep that in mind. It affects nerves even back then. So thalidomide was believed to ease morning sickness because the nerves in the digestive track were not as responsible. That is where our response of that is, where the desired effect comes from. You tell the nerves to calm down and bear in mind your gut has the second highest density of nerves, second only to your brain. So you've got your brain and then you've got your gut That makes up like 99% of all the nerves in your body. If you're taking your medication, it calms the brain down. Is probably in recalling in the stomach down. If you take something to calm the stomach down, it's probably going to cause the brain to calm down. However, it was noticed that some women and subsequent babies were not affected. Tests were done in various animals and they discovered that humans as well as rabbits, armadillos, marsupials, chickens, zebrafish and even bacteria were highly susceptible to the effects of thalidomide. And yet mice were not affected. Sick. Yes. This is like in the nineties and 2000. Great. Yes. So it'll only tested their drug on mice since mice had no. Like, mice didn't even really register the medication. They just figured, hey, it didn't kill the mouse. Give it to humans. the only tested it in mice, there was no way for them to know it could cause this much damage. And I don't think there was any research protocol that specified that multiple animals had to be tested. So keep in mind, in 1953, 1953, DNA had just been discovered, let alone look at genetic differences between humans and mice. Like, there was no idea. Like how much DNA do we share with their fellow animals? turns out it's a lot. But there's very, very specific like a specific protein can be the culprit as we will get into here. But if they had just done the testing on other pregnant species, this whole thing probably could have been avoided. However, it was observed in the 20 tens that thalidomide is known as in a Nancy Uma or an Enantiomers or a compound or compounds that are identified but mirror images of each other. was an r enantiomers and an S enantiomers are enantiomers had the sedating effect which are desired. S enantiomers a tradition and caused the birth defects. And what's interesting, if you look at these, the molecule thalidomide like you'll see the molecule like point off to the right and then you have a mirror image of it pointing off to the left. That doesn't mean that they're the same because there are mirror images of themselves. So by having the molecule point a certain direction in their direction and then you take a mirror image of it, those two things will behave differently. that's all it takes. And it's something that's always blown my mind about, like biochemistry and stuff like that is like you could take a molecule and you can move a carbon atom from one side of the molecule to the other side of the molecule, and now it's poison that like that. That's all it takes. And there is no way to manufacture thalidomide to eliminate that as enantiomers. they could figure out a way to do that and just do the are enantiomers problem solved. There would have been no no birth defects. And the birth defects only happened to people with a very, very specific genetic trait that can't even be fathomed until you do like a like a genome of somebody, the Indian tumor. I and I apologize to the biologists out there who are screaming at me for not pronouncing that right. I should have done a Google pronunciation on it, but you get the point. The enantiomers had a tendency to mess with a specific protein used in fetal or fetal and for use in fetal cell formation called cell four. And this protein is what helps create the nervous system, specific organs and a bunch of other stuff that you are born with and that you'll carry for the rest of your life. This one protein is responsible for kind of laying down the foundation. So, Carol, when you were like the size of a marble, your body was relying on cell four to like, okay, we need to lay down the road map of the nerves. We need to lay down like, where are the kidneys going to go? We need to lay down where the bone is going to grow. And that's kind of what this protein helped facilitate. When the nerves and other foundational structures are messed with, especially when you're the size of a marble, then the instruction manual for how a baby is to be assembled, so to speak, flies up the window and the developing fetus is biologically guessing as to what it's supposed to do. Which is the reason why, like when you first develop, like you form your core. I read somewhere that human beings are like the only animal that forms the anus before anything else. That's a fun fact. Yeah, it's interesting fact, because that literally means that at one point in time everybody on earth were assholes. Oh, yeah. Oh, spare. Yeah. So, like, they were just living holes, Nice. so. on there that wasn't accurate. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's got to be real. It's got to be real. So, yeah, without with this s in the end too. Kind of messing with this sell for and all that kind of stuff. The nervous system kind of develop, right? When the nervous system can't develop right, then we start running into other structural issues like what do Bones do? And so the reason why you have nerves in your teeth, if you had no nerves at the time that you were the size of a marble forming in your head, you would grow no teeth because the nerves are what say, Hey, something's got to happen right here a deeper level, certain people with a very specific genetic marker were under this or in susceptible to thalidomide, but 10,000 up to 100,000 were. So it is projected that it is up to 100,000. Uh, people could have been affected by this. So Part five The Thalidomide Trial on May 27, 1968. Keep in mind, thalidomide had been in use since the 1950s. Nine Grunenthal senior employees were put to trial in LS Dorf. I don't know where that's at before the Grand Criminal Chamber of the Regional Court of Akin. I'm sorry. The Europeans have a way cooler name for their court system. The Regional court of Auckland. Yeah. Well, I'm looking at the first grand criminal chamber Anything was. of the regional court of Akin. Like, that's pretty epic. See al-Sadr. Where's al-Sadr? I think that's in Germany. Sounds like it. It's. It's in Germany, folks. But yeah. All right. For the first grand criminal chamber. I don't ever see myself committing a crime where I have to go before a judge. But if I do have to go before a judge, I really hope it's in front of the first grand criminal chamber. That sounds very star worthy. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Like first inquisitor. All that kind of stuff. The aim of the trial, keep in mind at this point, the world or people have forgotten that the people that developed this medication were former Nazi scientists. If we just just gloss over the fact that some of them got pulled out of jail because they had experience making antibiotics or drugs or whatever. They're like, Hey, you look useful. We'll pull you out of jail. Yeah. This is good. Like Baron von Braun. Like he came to America to kind of develop the space program here, and he was heralded as a hero. But he knew full and well what was going on with the Nazis. He had Jewish slaves working form in the tunnels. And while they're working on the V one and the B two rockets, they knew. that's a that's a whole nother episode unto itself. All nine had to be found innocent or guilty. So they charged all nine at once. I don't understand why. Because I feel like when you have that many people, there's going to be some people that knew more and actively tried to hide it and then you're going to have people that had literally no idea what was going on. Yeah. But they charged all nine the senior members. As a result, this case was doomed from the start. All nine had to be found innocent or guilty, which means all the defense had to do was find one person who was without a doubt not involved and the charges would get dismissed. And that is exactly what happened after about two years. All nine of these executives walked out with zero responsibility for their actions. I mean, I really sucks. Yeah. And to think like if you're a part of those family members that are been affected by this or you've been affected by it, like There's no accountability. No. And they blatantly tried covering stuff up. Yeah. Just like the leaded gasoline thing. Yeah. Yeah. They actively took measures to cover it up, to obstruct, to slow the process down. And it just blows my mind that they can walk away just like that. And it's happening to this day. just crazy what what some of these people can get away with. It's also crazy what what they get caught with, too. So it's a it's a yeah, it's what does that lady that she had that genealogy company that No, not that wasn't her. It was another lady that was she had a biotech company and she got busted with like committing like millions of dollars of fraud and. Yeah, there's like a Netflix documentary or HBO documentary on that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's I, I'm, I'm, I watch that. That's kind of, kind of interesting. But however there was a civil trial that did not go their way. So criminally they walked away civilly. Not so much. So in a settlement, Grunenthal agreed to pay 100 million German marks, but $50 million into a foundation. So we have that today. So like the whole opiate crisis, the pharmaceutical companies got sued because they were just basically telling doctors to throw out oxes and and all that stuff to people like they're a candy now. They owe billions of dollars. There's not like those. Where does that billion dollars go? Well, it doesn't just go to the people that are affected to it. It goes to a foundation that they have to set up. And then that foundation then divides it up amongst the states based on what they plan on doing with it and and all that kind of stuff. But it it's kind of complicated that makes it so that like one person just doesn't receive all the money. It makes it that it has to be like through a committee and all that kind of stuff. The foundation was called the German Federal Conservation Foundation, so that was one of the names of thalidomide back in the day to help with ongoing medical and physical and financial support for the remaining thalidomide babies. That's what they were called. It is interesting to note that the German government also contributed an additional hundred million German marks to get the foundation going. So I thought that was that was interesting. So like, okay, we've got like this $50 million lawsuit that the Grunenthal Company agreed to settle on. But then the German government is like, but we're going to dive into and we're going to try to help fix this. And so like the basic premise behind this, this foundation is like, okay, obviously if you're a thalidomide baby, you're not able to walk or use your hands, You're not able to function in society compared to somebody that is fully able bodied. So it's like, how do they make a living? Right? And the way this foundation works, it's just like, Hey, I don't have hands, I can't make a living. What do I have to do? So you fill out an application which if you have no hands, I don't know how you fill an application, but. You ask for help. Yeah, but like you would, you would apply for to get basically a grant. So you get almost like a salary or like a disability check as as a result. I guess that makes sense. I mean, you got to take care of these people somehow that this sucks because you kind of have to like, constantly renew over and over and over again when it shouldn't be that complicated. However, by accepting this settlement, this is always in every clause or every settlement agreement. If if you accept the settlement, you agree that Grunenthal could never be sued for this issue again. So all they have to do is write a $50 million check and they're answerable after that. Like, you can't go back and say, Hey, we need more money. You can't go back and say that, you know, this trial wasn't fair. We should have gotten more. Or you're like, let's just say, like you somehow you found out. But as you're a thalidomide baby and you just found out in like 1979 that there was this lawsuit and that you could have been the recipient of money and so you're like, screw that, I'm going to sue them. You can't they basically have double jeopardy in that regard. So for them, this is a screaming deal, $50 million. That's it. Okay. So it's almost like those companies that, uh, those mines that produce like lead fumes that go up in the air and they could spend tens of millions of dollars to retrofit the smokestacks to scrub out all that lead, or they just pay like the $1.5 million a year in fines, and then they just shut the mine down in like six, seven years. Yeah. To date, the German government has spent up to 1.8 billion marks, or about 2.07 billion USD on providing funding for the nearly 2200 survivors of the thalidomide era. In 2012, CEO of Grunenthal Harold Stork the women and children affected by the decisions to mask the negative effects of thalidomide. So 50 years later, At you least. get an apology. Somebody did, I guess, like perhaps to Mr. Stock. Well. Thank you for finally doing that. Well, I found out too, like they actually they have given more money to. Like they've they've, they've been contributing into the so like the Grunenthal that I think we see today is not the shady Nazi former scientists. Kind of folks. I feel like they're a little bit more on the up and up now. six, Back from the dead, right? Thinking that thalidomide is done for it's gone. No, no. It is still out there. And actually a pretty effective drug for a number of things. turns out just because it causes traumatic birth defects, it doesn't mean get rid of it. It just means you've be careful in how you administer it. Thalidomide is a very useful drug to this day, since the medication influences nerves can damage and stunt growth as a result. As in like fetuses. Thalidomide saw a resurgence as a great way to treat leprosy little mite can stunt the development of new cells. was very effective against the spread of leprosy in people, which. Okay. And I'm assuming if you're a leper, you're probably not having kids. Like, I just feel like that's not a priority. And actually, I don't even think there is any cases of leprosy today because that's all treatable now. Back then, in the sixties, seventies and eighties, like I know, Hawaii had a leper colony for a while and stuff like that, but now that's all treatable. Cancer treatment. Since cancer is an unregulated cell growth, thalidomide has been showing a lot of promise of stunting the growth of cancer cells. So a lot of like, uh, what? What is that? A myeloma cancer cell or something like that? I can't remember. There was like a, a list of specific cancers that it can treat. So yeah, like if it can if it can stunt a baby's growth or development, it can stunt cancer growth. So that's pretty cool. It can help some folks who are experiencing complications associated with bone marrow transplants. So that was one of the things, you know, if you were a thalidomide baby, you would have like stunted bone growth in your arms and legs. And so they figured, well, you've got a bone marrow transplant. And if that transplant isn't going well, give that patient thalidomide, because that can help mitigate complications from a bone marrow transplant. Which is kind of cool. And then HIV patients have experienced positive benefits from thalidomide, again, if you like. If you look at all these issues here, chances are you're not pregnant or you planning on getting pregnant anytime soon. Like, I don't if I'm a woman and I know that I have breast cancer of some sort, like an advanced cancer, I'm probably not going to want to get pregnant during all Yeah. And there is a reason why they always ask you those questions when you go to the doctor. This is that reason. This is why. Because it's good to know kind of a thing. If you're if you're getting a bone marrow transplant again, baby's the last thing on your mind. If you're an HIV patient again, a baby is not on your mind, even though it doesn't necessarily treat the virus. It has been shown to help with some of the other side effects of HIV. And then it's also helpful in treating autoimmune issues such as like Crohn's disease. is all under the premise that anyone who takes this medication cannot be pregnant or planning on becoming pregnant, as this is the first large scale medical dumpster fire, because a little more research could have gone a long, long ways. Nice. And that is the story of thalidomide. It is excellent. all my beautiful sources. I know. I saw that. It made me real happy. super proud of you. No, they're legit. You got some duck gloves in here? Mount Sinai Yeah. Pub Med Good. and CBI. Yeah. No thalidomide that was that. That's kind of it's it's, it's a different dumpster fire than we've done in the past. It was good. We've done like some medical stuff, like there are 25. But that's just like a mechanical issue and a user issue. This was like, Oh, hey. Here's You this know, thing. we'll just throw this out there and see what happens. Yeah, we'll try it. And I don't know to what extent do you think those those guys should be held accountable? The people that actually, like, tested this drug and then threw it out there like the next day. I think they should be held accountable because while they didn't have a lot of research guardrails to begin with that I understand there were still research processes. I think they probably skipped. Yeah. So. And Please be held accountable for some of that stuff. And then after they found out that it was going to be a problem, they still that. tried to keep selling it. That's. That's my. The sticking point, too. So there's a. Yeah, it's one I mean, yeah, it's one thing to be called on and say, Hey, you guys got a bad drug and then you, like, you immediately pull it off the shelf. Yeah, those different. You merely kill it, bring it in and all that stuff. But as soon as you start trying to cover it up, I feel like that's just good life advice. Anybody. Just don't try to cover up a mistake. If you screw up. It's all about intent. Yeah. Look, if you screw up, just own it. It'll go so much easier for you. But, man, as soon as you start covering crap up. Yeah, That's when you look real bad. Hello, Nixon. It's when you're a girl that. Yeah. Like you can't. You just can't walk away from it. But yeah, that was thalidomide. I tried to avoid getting into the nitty gritty of, like, this protein goes to this cell and that protein affects that part of the DNA. I do appreciate that because I would have been very you would have lost me to my dreamland of my brain. Right? Yeah. And I just went as far as the enantiomers because I thought that was kind of intriguing. It's a fun word. It's a good word. Yes. Yeah. And I was just looking at it in terms of like, okay, you may learn this stuff in high school biology, maybe a high school or a college biology class, and then just leave it at that if you're interested in it. Do your deep dive. Have fun. Yeah. That's all on you. So. Nice. Excellent. I liked it. It's good. We want to brag about our website. Yeah. So now that we are on winter break and things are starting to calm down a little bit, especially after Christmas, I am going to finally get our website updated and ready to go for all of our current episodes that are coming out. So if you would please visit the day's dumpster fire dot com. I would be appreciated. I would appreciate it. I would. Also, we have our Instagram that is dumpster fire. You can find us there and you can email us at the day's dumpster fire at gmail.com if you have any ideas, if you have some questions, if you're looking for like a specific source, for some reason, we're always happy to help. So yeah, if you want to contact us for whatever reason you can. Yeah. And I. For those of you who've listened to the, uh, Titanic episode, uh, Karen, I try to, like, base a lot of our dumpster fires off of, like, where we're at in, like, history curriculum. Granted, thalidomide here is a little later than where we're at, but it's one of these things where, hey, if you're a high schooler and you're studying a time period in American history or world history or whatever, uh, check us out, because I think what a lot of the stuff that we do, we kind of go into deep dives, like obviously in terms of like thalidomide here, but we also kind of look at like the rest of the world a little bit and how it was the rest of the world looking at this kind of thing. And and your history teacher dude, if you if you throw in, uh, in a history research paper or whatnot, you start throwing in like how this affects the bigger picture, uh, that will go a long ways. Oh, yeah. And I feel like this show can really, really help out with that. And now that we're up to like, what, 44 episodes in, we cover a wide range of stuff. So up to Cara's point, Hey, hit us up. Send us a message on our show notes. There's a link at the top where you can actually send us a text message and that like, we won't be able to respond to it necessarily because it doesn't come straight to our phones. But if you send us a text message, we can do a shout out for you. I know we've had Daniel do it. I think Cain has done it. Mike, just throw ideas out there. definitely need to get the one going for him. Nathaniel on that Svalbard incident, that's that definitely sounds like a hot mess. Yeah. And he's been. To do that for. Yes. Time. Yeah. In the meantime, like, tell people about us. You know, with the holidays here and all that kind of fun stuff, like, be sure to blurt out the day's dumpster fire to your relatives. Everybody's got that. And Ethel, that just got her smartphone and because she's been carrying a flip phone for the past 20 years, like, show her where to go, cause we're on. We're on everything. Amazon, YouTube, we're on iTunes or or is it podcast on Apple dot com. We're on Spotify. That's probably one of our biggest locations. Yeah. Be sure to let people know about us. Uh, show them where to go. They're not podcast savvy and yeah, get them subscribed and let's get, uh, let's get a movement going of people that are willing to embrace failure. Yeah. And dumpster fires, because we all we all screw up at some point in time. Granted, I haven't and I haven't, like, caused 100,000 birth defects. So I mean. I'm okay with that. That's good. On that note, I'm going to try something different. I'm going to post on Instagram. A little hint about what my next episode is going to be. My topic. And I'm going to see if if there are some folks out there who want to give it a go. So if you find us at Instagram, at the day's dumpster fire, I'll go ahead and post a hint. And I want to see if anybody can guess what my topic is going to be for my next episode. I like that. I'll go ahead and post that tonight before I go to sleep and then we'll see what happens. See, I made sure that was a, uh, a future episode well. Why not, Right? Because I know mine involves a dolphin. Oh, that's fun. Mine. Mine involves an armada. Tree rings. Disease. Famine. Yeah. You like the fat, the the famine disease. I like all the crazy, big, complicated events I have too. Sometimes I have to reel myself in. That's what I had to do with Custer. Like Custer, I could to turn that into a five part series. Because that was massive. Oh, well, anyway, thanks for listening, guys. Keep an eye out for that Instagram post. Yeah. And we will see you in the next one. Keep it hot mess. By.