Vietnam War Fire Part 2 - Episode 42

In this episode, Kara follows up on her exploration into the dumpster fire that is the Vietnam War. She left off in the Vietnam War Part I right at the height of 1969. So if you haven't checked out that episode, it is strongly recommended that you do so now. However, if you feel confident in your knowledge of Vietnam, then you can proceed.

Kara moves on from what started the Vietnam War in American history to why the issue created so much conflict in an already conflicted America. There are race riots, gay rights activists, anti-space travel issues, along with a multitude of other internal issues in America that when combined made things so much worse for the boys fighting in the war itself. Not to mention, if you ever had aspirations of being the President of the United States, the question must be asked: why in God's green earth would anyone want this job?

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Transcript

Kara: 0:00

Hey, everybody, this is Kara. And this said. This is your days. Dumpster fire. Or we don't celebrate humanity's successes. But it's a fantastic failure's. Wow, I forgot how fast that new intro kind of like, quiets down. I was. I was getting ready to take another bite out of my sandwich and then, like, insert a tapering down, like, Oh, crap. Oh, bummer. I guess I'll have to wait until we get into the actual show, and then we'll go from there. It's all good. So, yeah, no, today as my microphone just peaked, like. Oh, boy. Uh. Uh, right. Never mind. I'll deal with it. Um, so today is kind of a weird, um, kind of a weird show because we've recorded an episode in between the last one and this one. Depending on editing time, it might still go in order. Yeah. No, we recorded Kara and I decided to take on the episode or the idea of the Titanic's sinking, and there are so many podcasts out there that just revolve around Titanic, like Titanic things, and there's just no way that we could have competed with what has already been done. So we decided to have our students, like investigate their own theories as to why it sank. At the end of the day, it hit an iceberg. It sank. But we wanted our students to kind of see what was out there. So I am currently working on that. It turns out that our huge giant classroom with all these bare walls and everything is the most echoey thing known to mankind. And I'm having to lose like I have to edit, like word for word and that's just its own dumpster fire in its own right. I'm hoping when it comes out here in the next 5 to 6 years, when I'm done editing it, that it sounds good. But yeah, don't record in an open room because what were you suggesting that like, hey, let's record in the NPR. Yeah, that would have been even. So like we have a multipurpose room at our school. Words like. It's like a tiny, tiny little auditory room, but it is the most echoey thing ever because it's surrounded with brick walls, hard tile floors, hard ceilings. There's like a little stage that is all made out of, like, hard everything. And when you stand in that room, you can hear yourself before you even speak. With the room being full of children. Yeah, I would have been such a disaster. So? So, yeah, we're we're. We're going to get that out now. I'm going to try to get that out at some time. But thankfully, in the meantime, you have Cara, who has lived and breathed Vietnam for like the past few weeks, and you should finish it off, right? Like. It's going to it's going to finish today. But I have enjoyed every minute of it. And I'll be real. There's a lot of stuff that I left out. There's a lot of elements, especially this episode. We're going to talk more about what was going on in the U.S. and I leave so much out and I feel bad about doing so. But just for the sake of time, I focus solely on Vietnam and not all of the other craziness. I do go into the election a little bit, but, um, yeah, I mean, I just felt bad leaving all that out and I really just wanted to say that because, like, because there's so. Well. Civil rights and gay rights is. Oh. All of that stuff going on at the time period and. I would have to say that 1969 is probably one of the craziest years in U.S. history. 68 and 69. Those two years. There's something. Yeah. Great. And I love it. And like I said in the last Vietnam episode, this is the stuff that I studied the most in college. So. This is what you revel in. This is what I revel in. I freaking love it. It's so funny because I've been watching. I started rewatching the John Adams series. Oh, that's a good, good show. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I saw it. I watched it when I was in, like, man, when I was like, 23 years old. Now that I'm like, 42. Um, so I'm rewatching it now. Now that, like, from the perspective of whatever age slash father and all that kind of stuff. And there was one scene where, like John Adams and Sam Adams watch a man get stripped naked and then tarred and feathered. And John Adams is like, Is this the rule of law? Is this how we're going to proceed? And Sam Adams seemed kind of okay with it. And I was just thinking like, Guys, wait till the sixties. But wait until 68, 69. It's going to get so much crazier than you could ever expect. It's crazy, but it's also a progressive turning point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's something we're like, yes, the protests would get violent, but especially if you look at civil rights throughout the fifties, up to this point and the nonviolent movement led by Dr. King. Um, it's it's violent, but then it's only one sided violence. Okay, well. If that makes sense. And then we at this point in 68, it's it's to a point where we're about to blow the one sided violence is not working for some people. Start to get the explosive protests, especially after Dr. King is assassinated. Yes. Yes. Because I know, like Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King were. Well, if you really want to see the damn dynamic between Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, look at Professor Xavier and Magneto. Yeah, it was it was pretty much that That's what those comics are based off of. Yeah that that's what it's based on in. And when you look at like the amount of tension in society in 69. People landing on the moon. People irritated that we're spending billions of dollars on this yet Vietnam War. We've got race issues. Yeah, it's going to get it's all going to come to a head. So what? Why not dive in? Let's let's recap what quickly. People should need to listen to in part one and then let's dive in to part two. Well, okay, So for part one, I started during the Cold War era, just after World War Two. People were super afraid of communism. Communism starting to spread primarily on the east, in the east. So some parts of Asia, especially China and the Soviet Union, is kind of the the big player in that regard. So therefore, U.S. officials are super scared of communism spreading. And that's where Vietnam comes in. They were afraid that if Vietnam falls to communism, all of Asia was going to fall to communism. And that fear is so strong and prominent throughout the those years that it basically ran all of the decision making. So then we get to Vietnam and the U.S. is involved in Vietnam from the early fifties financially, and eventually we have boots on the ground by the time we get to 1965. And slowly, gradually, we are getting more and more media coverage of the conditions in Vietnam. And by the time we get to 67, we have a lot of people and it's it's it's like half and half. You have a lot of people who are supportive of the war, but then you have a lot of people who are frustrated with the war. They don't know why we're there, why are we spending so much money on this war and all of that good stuff? And then we get to a huge turning point in terms of the public opinion of the Vietnam War in January of 1968. So that's where we will start. Know what's funny is that I remember like learning all this stuff when I was in high school about, like turning the tide of communism and stop the spread and all that kind of stuff. When I asked my grandfather, who was born 1918 and went through the Depression and yeah, you know, all that stuff, he he remembered not really being worried about it. My dad was never really worried about it. It was more of a propaganda thing that was kind of put forth by the politicians so that people could get reelected. It's almost like America was looking for a war to participate in, to kind of like, Hey, look at what happened in 1941 through 1945 and look how victorious we were. Let's not focus on 5352. We don't need to worry about that. No, don't fret about that. Well, we will overlook that. But look at us. And that was kind of the vibe I got when talking to Mark. My grandfather and my dad when I was younger. My uncle. Yeah. It wasn't like they were so worried about the spread of communism. It was more like, where are these nuclear missiles going to be positioned? Because that that that kind of determined a lot. And Russia really spearheaded Russia, really spearheaded rocketry and missiles and all that stuff. Whereas America at that time from the fifties to the sixties, was way behind on rocketry. But they had a lot of bombers and a lot of these bombers couldn't be shot down. And I think that's kind of like the mechanism that perpetuated the politicians to be like, Hey, we need to stop the spread of communism, because these missiles could hit anywhere at any time, like Cuban Missile Crisis, for example. I think it's a mixture of all of that. Yeah. So from everything I've read, watched interviews, primary sources, I've read a lot of it. The general feeling in the country as far as communism goes is it wasn't just the fear of like communism, especially in the fifties. It was more the fear of being accused of being a communist. The McCarthyism of it all. Yeah. Because Yeah. in Because it was it was considered like a disease. Right. And in the fifties, you start to see something happen in culture where people are afraid to be different. People are afraid to really show their personalities and show their true opinions of things publicly. You. You have people living in, you know, a cookie cutter, white picket fence, homes in suburbia. Wives Levittown. stay at home. All of that stuff like the white suburban American 1950s. And it could be argued and I've read this in a few different sources and from some different historians. And the general consensus is there's this fear of being different and showing your true colors. And that's kind of why the culture was like that at the time. Well, we have a what was it, McCarthyism? McCarthy was this He this guy was nuts. We talked about him in the first episode and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go back and listen to that. But, but like, he, he perpetuated this idea that communism is a disease. And all the way up to Jonathan Miller coming up with, you know, the play The Crucible which was all about the Salem Witch trials, which was the allegory of what it was like to be a, you know, anybody who thought differently in society in America. And you could be destroyed if you weren't careful. Right. So you have that going on. And then the further we get away from McCarthyism in terms of time, you start to have kids growing up in this type of environment and those kids are starting to ask questions like, why? Why are we living like this? Why are we why are we living in a hypocritical society where you say all men are created equal, but then you look down the street and people in the south are being essentially tortured based off of the color of their skin? Why are we in the middle of a war and we're paying millions of dollars for and we're seeing the Vietnamese people getting blown out of the water? What's the purpose of all this? So we have this younger generation asking a lot of questions, and that's why you see a lot of the protests come out of college campuses is because that generation didn't grow up in the McCarthy era. So there is that thing where they don't have that same fear that their parents did and they're willing to fight that. Yeah. And it's a lot like what we're seeing today. Right. We're seeing kids today who have grown up in in an age where there really hasn't been a major war. And these kids are kind of like now living up to Xboxes and PlayStations and their cell phones and stuff like that. And a lot of them are starting to be like, what's going on in the Middle East? What? What? Like Why are we spending? what? You over there. Why are people dying over there? And I feel like once you hit a point in a war where people start asking why, that's the time to like, okay, we need to bow out as opposed to like World War Two. You could ask anybody in 1943, America, why are we in the war? They will know. They have very, very specific and like, you know, what would sound like valid reasons. But then if you ask the, let's say, an effective regional one. Okay, it's 1969. What are we still doing? Fighting the Japanese? And people will probably be like, I have no idea why. Now, granted, we all know how World War Two ended, but I feel like when we are talking about Vietnam and we're talking about the spread of communism and all that. So we are starting to get into a generation of like college kids who are like, What are we doing? And you could be prosecuted for asking that type of question. And during this time period, this generation of young people, it wasn't just Vietnam. That was the big one, but it was also racism and it was gays. And it was anybody who was different who were treated really bad. You started you start to see this young generation ask why. And sometimes they didn't get an answer. Like what? Like what? What if they weren't different? What if they were a woman? Same thing. Yeah, Treated differently. Women were different. They're but not they're not. a white man. Yeah, but they're not supposed to be different. That's the thing. It's just like. I know, but they were. Yeah. In the fifties. They were they were stuck in the house and they couldn't work. And they were considered to be different. They weren't a white men. Yeah. So by the seventies, we also get a women's movement as well, where women are starting to work and they're getting out of the house and we get the sexual revolution and they're starting to sleep with people, especially with birth control coming out and all of that stuff. So I do skip over all of that and I feel really bad, but just know that that is also a part of the American zeitgeist, that this time there's a lot going on. Yeah women's rights is That a was my very. capstone in college. Yeah, that that's multi-part podcast episode. That's a whole big thing. I wouldn't call it a dumpster fire, so I don't know if we'll talk about it here, but I know my students will start hearing a lot about it come next year because. Yeah. I love it. So. Yeah. Anyway, so let's get into it. We are in late January 1968. We just talked about all the things that are going on. And North Vietnam decided to choose a holiday to set off an offensive. And their goal was to end this war that has been going on for a few years now. They just wanted a united Vietnam under the communist government. That's all they were looking for. That's what they were fighting for. I shouldn't put it word it that way. That's what they were fighting for. While in the south, we are starting to see the South. The southern Vietnamese really rely on American troops and support. And we're starting to see a pattern where they would fall apart without that support, which makes it even more difficult to pull out. Well, one of the problems was, is that like if you went to Vietnam or South Vietnam at this time, you talk to any like a shop owner or whatever, you know, you're just like, just talk to the average person in Saigon or whatnot. And they would say that this is an American war. Most of them. They lost purpose of what they were fighting for. Yeah. Most of them honestly didn't care. They thought that this was a war fought between politicians. They had no ill will towards the north. The North average folks had no ill will to the south. And once you hit that point where even the people that you're choosing to, quote unquote defend when they don't understand what it is that you're fighting for, then what are you fighting for? And that was it. That was kind of like the big thing back then was like, the South doesn't even care. Like, what are we doing here? Yeah. So the Tet offensive was a coordinated attack by the North Vietnamese Communists and the Viet Cong against Southern Vietnam, and they chose multiple different targets. It wasn't just one city that they attacked, it was multiple included Saigon in Hanoi, in major cities, as well as some smaller areas, bases along the border, stuff like that. And the goal was to weaken U.S. and Ervin forces and force them to end the war and claim that we have full control of the country and all that good stuff. They also, if anything, wanted the bombing to stop because remember from last episode we have Operation Rolling Thunder. It's still going on in 1968. We're still being bombarded by bombs. And just let's just assume that bombs are dropping this entire time because they're kind of, ah. So January 30th, two first NLF forces attack populated targets in South Vietnam, the ones that we just talked about. And a lot of these cities like Saigon and Hoi, were cities where American troops would go to find peace, relax. They kind of let their guard down. Right. I believe the U.S. embassy was also I think it's in Saigon, but it was targeted as well. Yeah, it was in Saigon. And this whole thing set off. It was pretty violent and the entire thing was televised. And for those of you who have strong stomachs, if you're students, please ask your parents before you do this. But go watch some of that coverage. Go watch some of that coverage of the Tet Offensive, the American coverage, because it's pretty it's pretty intense. They don't blur anything out. There aren't any. There's no censorship. And there's there's one interview. I don't remember what who the reporter was, but he's behind a wall and he has a microphone with him. And there's a soldier shooting over the wall in the middle of a firefight, and he comes down for cover and then he goes in for an interview. I get like, that's how crazy it was. And he. Yeah. This guy puts the microphone here. How do you feel about what's going on right now or whatever? The guy's like, I just want to go home. I'm scared and I just want to go home. Yeah. One of the most famous, I think reporters was Jack Jack Halloway. And that he was he would go to the front lines and he would actually have, like a machine gun on his back, a camera on on the other shoulder. And he was out there while being shot at. And there was a general that said that you cannot go out there without a gun. And some of these reporters were pretty intense, like. They were intense. They were they cared deeply about getting this information to the general public, even. Yeah. Cronkite went to Vietnam in January. So you can you can even you can watch Walter Cronkite out there with his helmet. Yep. Yep. So, yeah, all of this was televised. Watch some of that media coverage if you're allowed to. It is pretty intense. So if things like that make you very uncomfortable, don't watch it. But this is stuff that just came on on the regular nightly news. Like people remember people in their families with their kids would surround the TV every night and this was like a family affair. And you have all of this, the reality of war in their living room. And this is the thing that really, really bothered people, this Tet Offensive because of the way it was covered. And another thing that came out of this, this event, there was a Southern Vietnamese police chief who came up to a Viet Cong soldier who was captured prisoner of war and shot him point blank in the head. Yep. And a photographer took a picture of him right Yep. before he was shot. And that went to newspapers all over the world. And that image alone caused so much emotional response throughout the entire world. So and I do want to note, too, like this, this conflict wasn't just televised in the States. It was also watched closely by British media. And some other places in Europe. So just be aware of that. There is a guy called. His name is Sir Max Hastings. He wrote a book on it. He was a reporter at the time. And he's been studying this event as a historian. Book is actually the main thing that I use for this. So go read it. It's great. Sir. Max Hastings. He's cool. Is there another one or two? You wrote one on World War two. Anyway, sort of a plug that. You go. But yeah, this this particular event is really something that caused a lot of public outcry. And the the first phase of this is the most famous. There were two more phases. Throughout the summer, NFL forces targeted smaller cities and villages throughout the summer and through the winter. Arvin and U.S. forces took back the towns and villages, Indianola for captured. So in reality, Arvin and the U.S. were able to push these back. And technically the Tet Offensive was not successful. Yes, but not without. A lot of effort from I'll get there. the U.S. forces and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know you'll get there. I just want to specify like the Americans, the soldiers did their jobs. Oh, yeah. No. What he's. Very well. Yeah, It's just that they were really criticized. Back then. Back then for it. Which I think is. nowadays I. Creating. Especially with people who are learning about it in school and in universities. The soldiers who went there have gained a lot more respect from the general public. Yeah. But despite the fact that they were successfully able to put the offensive down, they suffered heavy, heavy casualties. They lost a lot of materials and equipment and men. And this also includes a lot of civilian deaths. It was a it was a bad deal. So by the end of the Tet Offensive, both sides claimed they won Aavin and U.S. forces nearly wiped out the NLF in South Vietnam while taking back everything they took over. But North Vietnam did successfully cause a big issue in terms of morale and support from the general public for the US. The Tet Offensive caused a shift in public support for the war. Back in the States, maybe more than a shift, and maybe we'll call it a tidal wave or an earthquake dumpster fire. Public discussions of the escalation became commonplace. Anti-war demonstrations began picking up and protesting intensified. This is where we start to get the famous imagery of the flower in the gun peace signs. Some really sick ass music like this. This is when the anti-war movement starts to spread to places that weren't just college campuses. Now we have celebrities talking about it. We have athletes talking about it. Muhammad Ali has a very famous speech about the anti-war movement. We have musicians making a lot of statements. We have civil rights leaders. And these they're all starting to start speaking their opinions of this war generally against it. Big hit, especially for Lyndon Johnson, who's going through a lot of political turmoil at this time because of the war. On February 27th, 1968, Walter Cronkite spoke out against the war. And we'll explain why this is a big deal. But he said, I watched. I watched it. You can find this you can find this on on YouTube if you ever want to watch it. I linked it. But he said, who won and who lost in the great Tet Offensive against the cities? I'm not sure. The Vietcong didn't win by a knockout, but neither did we. We should have. We should have all along that any negotiations must be that negotiations, not the dictation of peace terms. And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the brink of cosmic disaster. But it is increasingly clear that to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy and did the best they could. This is Walter Cronkite. Good night. And then it ended. So it's pretty heavy. And Walter Cronkite, for those of you who don't know who he is, he was the most watched, most famous television newscaster of the time period. I'm sure even some of our students have heard of Walter Cronkite, considering how famous he is, maybe a parent or two has talked about him. But he was a big deal. And after Cronkite's comments, Johnson knew President Lyndon Johnson knew. He said, If I lost Cronkite, I have lost all of middle America. And I think that America has. I'm not going to get super political. But when we look at our past election, how one presidential candidate chose the largest podcast in the world and make their claims in and all that kind of stuff. And then you look at the outcome of the election. It's it's one of those things where here in America, if you find the right avenue, if you are in the right medium, your voices, your or your voice will be heard. And even the president has to abide by that. And it's been that way for a very long time. It may not seem like it, but you really do have to think about like, okay, yeah, technology has changed. Imagine imagine the person who was in charge of all the telegrams and imagine that kind of power that you have when you can speak up. So it doesn't have to be a senator. It doesn't have to be some politician or whatever. It can just be somebody in the media who can tell a president like in this war kind of a thing. Yeah. And to kind of stay in that vein. Lyndon Johnson was aware that is an election coming up in 1968 and he was coming up against a guy named. Oh, it wasn't Humphrey. It was Eugene McCarthy, I think. And Eugene McCarthy was a very anti-war Democrat going for the presidency. And a lot of the younger working class people really liked him. So he had that on one side. On another side, he had a another issue, another Democratic senator who he really did not get along with, Robert Kennedy. And in March of 1968, Robert Kennedy decided that he was also going to run for the presidency. And by this time now we have three different major candidates for the presidency on the Democratic Party, where we have one unified Republican candidate and Richard Nixon. And I think that's part of why Johnson decided to say what he's going to say on March 31st. So I just wanted to note that before we get into it. But on March 10th, The New York Times released an article stating that the military demanded an extra 206,000 men, which required reservists. And this was a big deal. So this particular New York Times article was a big problem for Johnson, because at this time period you had the draft going on, you had the draft going on, and now you're starting to see young people burning draft cards and holding demonstrations of throwing their draft cards away and refusing to go to war. And you're having a lot of music coming out for saying, I'm not going to war. I'm not your fortunate son. This is I'm not a fortunate son. So I'm not, you know, to quote Creedence Clearwater. But we have this going on and this comes out and this is an issue. On March 31st on national television, Johnson addressed the nation and he said, well, he gave an update on the status of the war. And then after the update, nobody knew he was going to do this except his wife. He said, I shall not seek and I will not accept the nomination of my party for another term as your president. So he decided to end his run for a second term as president. And while he had major successes on the domestic front, he he knew that his presidency was defined by Vietnam, and he decided it was time to step down as president. And by stepping down, Johnson had hoped to restore some unity amongst the nation. His goal was to say, okay, maybe I'm part of the problem, maybe I can be part of the solution. So I'll step down as president and I'll just try to do the best job I can while I'm still in office. And that's that's respectful, respectable. I get it. I can kind of see where he's coming from in that regard. On April 3rd, North Vietnam had accepted Johnson's offer to begin negotiations of peace, and it's a good thing Johnson had hoped that this would help repair some damage done to his presidency. Political party and public opinion at home. Unfortunately, there's a little wrench that was thrown in the next day on April 4th, 1968. Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated. After his assassination, riots and protests sprung throughout the country. People were upset, angry, sad. The National Guard had to be called in multiple cities. And by the end of this, 169 cities reported racial violence after King's assassination, $130 million in property damage, 24,000 arrests, 43 deaths. 36 of them were African-Americans. If you were the president at that time, you're you're. It's one thing after another. Well, this is 1968. It's one thing after another. So. Um. Like I said, I that is something that is a huge event, especially for the civil rights movement. I can't dive into it a lot here, but just know that I. I know that that's a big deal and I wanted to know it and just make sure that it was there. Other protests began to spring up more frequently and more violently after Dr. King's assassination. Like we said, the the violent out cries of people really, really came to into fruition because there wasn't that leader or figurehead to promote nonviolence. Even to the day he died, he was promoting nonviolence. So after he died, it was almost like a free for all. There's nobody to rein them in. of these protests were based on race and Vietnam. Notably, there's there was a protest in, uh, at Columbia University in New York, and that one's a big deal. And like I said, I can't go into the details, but if you want to read about it, it's pretty crazy. With Johnson stepping out of the presidential race, this left room for two Democratic candidates at this time, Eugene McCarthy and Robert F Kennedy. RFK is run was one that was engulfed in politics with support from African-Americans, working class, white Americans, and young people. He promised to end the Vietnam War and also help heal the nation after the divisions the war had brought with in America. By the time we get to the summer, RFK won his primaries just before the Democratic convention in August. In his victory statement in his hotel in Los Angeles, he said The violence, the disenchantment with our society, the divisions between blacks and whites, between the poor and the affluent and between age groups or in the war in Vietnam, we can overcome them. And just as he left the area, Robert Kennedy was shot. The shooter shot five other people before being taken under arrest. And on June six, Kennedy was pronounced dead at 144 in the morning. It was almost 26 hours after he was shot. Many of you Kennedy's assassination is the one that had destroyed all hope for unity and peace during that time. Can't win. Uh, yeah, There's this. I feel like we are, like, in. In the heart of the dumpster fire, like. Yes, we are. Everything's on fire. One thing after another. And I haven't even talked about the war as in like what was going on in Vietnam, because it's just stalemate after stalemate. People are still fighting and dying and all of that. So this is just the homefront. The Chicago Democratic Convention, another famous one. Was met with anti-war protests that included a number of different political groups and anti-war groups. They were met with 12,000 metro police officers, more than 5000 National Guardsmen and 7500 Army troops protecting the convention site and surrounding areas. I do want to note that, yes, we did have antiwar protests planned, but most people stayed home. So this group of anti-war protesters, I think it was like maybe 10,000 people tops and could have been smaller than that. I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but the fact that they were met in Chicago, in this one city with 12,000 police officers, 5000 National Guardsmen and 7500 Army soldiers. That's a lot. It's a lot. And they were there for a peaceful protest. And I. That still scares. I want to emphasize that. That's a lot of. It's a lot of people, but they were there for a peaceful protest. I really want to emphasize that the day before the convention began, violence ensued when riot police officers tried to clear demonstrators who were out past curfew of 11 p.m.. They used nightsticks and tear gas, and protesters eventually marched and moved to other areas of Chicago, like thousands of them. The demonstrations continued throughout the convention. Many peaceful arrests were made. Demonstrators would be arrested. They would shout things like the world is watching. So I don't know if I painted a clear enough picture of this, what basically happened. And this was all on TV. This is all you can you can find video of this on YouTube. A lot of this is peaceful. Protesters getting hit with nightsticks and being arrested violently. They're all they're doing. They're like they're fighting, obviously, but they're not doing it violently. And they're yelling things like the world is watching. The world needs to see what we're going through and that type of thing. Well. And on top of that, there was a space race going on. Oh, yeah, I don't really talk about that much, but it is. It is happening. There's there's billions and billions of dollars being dumped into a space race that a lot of Americans didn't think was necessary. And and there was also too. Lake right around the time of Apollo 13. We're like, great, now we're going to lose three American astronauts in in all this. And it's just like one thing after another. It is absolutely wild time that we haven't seen since, like maybe, what, 1860? And then before that it was like 1775. Like, it's just. Yeah, it's just it's just one cluster after another. Be great. Cricket. So the outcome of this protest was an absolute God awful nightmare for the government. It was viewed generally even to people who were just sitting at home watching this thing as overkill on the government's behalf. Like, okay, I get your trying to control things, but that was what Vice President Hubert Humphrey would eventually win the Democratic nomination and after Kennedy's assassination. But his nomination wouldn't be strong enough to hold any kind of Democratic victory or support. Americans were tired of the war in Vietnam, and this issue was one that was at the top of the ticket. Everybody cared about it. Republican Richard Nixon told the people that new leadership not tied to the prior administration would end the war. And after the tumultuous years of 67 and 68, people were ready to give something new a try. At the same time, Lyndon Johnson was trying to negotiate peace with Vietnam, and it came out later, like much later, I think in the eighties or something. I don't remember the exact date this came out. But Richard Nixon, while he was campaigning, reached out to his ambassador in Vietnam and told them not to make any deals with North Vietnam until after the election. So I just want to put that out there. He did do that. But Richard Nixon won the 1968 election 300 with 301 electoral votes versus Humphrey's 191. The way it panned out was kind of interesting. He was down when people were going to bed and then they woke up the next morning and he had won. So it was one of those close ones. And then he pulled through at the end. It was the, uh. It was the same exact thing with Abraham Lincoln. He told Ulysses as Grant, don't accept surrender. Don't wait, Hold like delay this until I get reelected and then accept the surrender. So then we have a president. And then at that time, the Republicans or the North Democrats or in the South, it would flip later on. But is like we need to make sure that the federal government in the north is completely unified so that we can pass the proper amendments and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's interesting how America will purposely delay a war for for political reasons. Yeah. I wouldn't say America would delay a war. I would say one man would delay the war for his own benefit. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I could agree with that. I, I, I can see that. I'm just saying, like, just the entity kind of a thing. I would, would, would be willing to delay a war for a political gain. Not that I want to see a political gain, but to finish off a hey, we've got plans X, Y and Z that will take longer than what my duration in the office is. Therefore, we need to like make sure those plans are going to go through. We have to kind of like not let the war end, so to speak. Yeah. So Richard Nixon took office in January of 1969 with the understanding that his success depended on how he handled Vietnam. In the first months of office, Nixon ordered B-52 bombings in Cambodia targeting North Vietnamese base camps there with the goal of escalating the war and winning it by force. So he kind of did the opposite of what he told the general public. So he was trying to win it by force, which Johnson already tried to do. But what he did differently is, at the same time, Nixon began new negotiations, chapter talks with North Vietnam, and he also tried to apply diplomatic pressure on the Soviet Union. So he tried to be super nice with the Soviet Union and with China. Well, Nixon was one of the guys that really worked with the Soviet Union. I think he was like secretary of state or an ambassador. I can't remember what's up my head. But he he worked with like Nikita Khrushchev and stuff like that. Like Nixon had a lot of experience with with the Soviet Union. Right. So he had hoped that if he could get the Soviets and the Chinese on his side, that they could influence the North Vietnamese to be more agreeable to negotiations with the U.S.. U.S. successes were already declining by early 1969 in terms of the military effort. And there were even Australian and New Zealand forces serving in south eastern Vietnam to help support the American cause. Which I thought was interesting. Now did we get the 250,000 or 200,000 men there yet or. Um. Kind of holding stable. I think it was still holding stable because that was in March and now we're in June. So we were probably like halfway through that process. Got it. Okay. So Nixon met with South Vietnam's president and came up with a plan to start withdrawing troops. From there on out, there was a steady withdrawal of American troops out of Vietnam. And by 71, only 184,000 troops were there. In 1969, there were about 540,000. In exchange, the American government would assist building up and training Aavin in hopes that they would be able to combat the Communists on their own. This government program was called Vietnamization, which is. I don't know if I like that That term. rolls off the tongue. It's a. The immunization. That's quite the it's quite the. The word. But basically the goal was to assist the South Vietnamese in building a new government and rebuilding and training their military and all of that stuff. The Nixon administration's main goal for this was to appease the American people. So I don't think they really cared about whether or not South Vietnam was successful. They just wanted to make sure that the public wasn't going to go him on them again. By this point. Have we not seen this before or like in recent years with, you know, like our conflicts in the Middle East, like we get involved, we conquer, we do a great job, but then it just draws on, on and on. And then people start like, what are we doing? And then America is like, okay, locals, this is what we have to do. And then we withdraw. It's it's, it's just it just to me, it just rings so much of recent history, it's just repeating itself. Yeah. I don't like talking about current events on the podcast. I know, I know, but I'm not. I'm not even taking a side on who's right or wrong. It's just like, why does America just keep finding itself in this position and I'll let the listeners in. decide that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a again, I'm not trying to take a side on who's right or wrong. It's just like in the past, you know, 50, 60 years. Ever since World War Two, America has always just seemed to have to be involved in everything. And the outcome is always the same. We see what the Roman Empire we saw with the British Empire, like we see with the Ottoman Empire. We see it so many times where there's a point where the main superpower is almost like obligated to be involved in everything. And yeah, it's it's, it's just strange to me how how humans default to that, which obviously is a completely different podcast type thing. But but yeah, it's just like, you know, like in history you learn history. You don't repeat the past. Correct. And I will say I personally believe that history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it does rhyme. You see patterns. And I think if you really study it, that happens due to human just qualities. So the way just people can be or human tendency is. Because that that's the main thoroughfare thoroughfares just Yeah. people be people in. Well, and there's a phrase that hard times make hard men and weak times make weak men kind of a thing. And then and this is why I like it to the listeners out there. If you're younger, please, for the love of God, talk to somebody old. Talk to somebody in a group home. Talk to somebody who is in a retirement community. Just talk to them because they will tell you what people were actually thinking back then. But from the perspective of wisdom and what was learned from it. And once you do that, then things don't like. Once you learn what happened in that dumpster fire, it's no longer a dumpster fire. You've put it out. In my opinion. But yeah, Anyways, I'm tangential. By this point, North Vietnam was a disciplined two tier totalitarian society governed by its civilians. South Vietnam claimed to be a democracy, but it was really just run by a bunch of generals with little promise for politics or military. Throughout the summer of 69, Henry Kissinger, the president's assistant for national security affairs, met with North Vietnam to attempt to come up with peace negotiations. But still they ended in a stalemate with no real progress, with negotiations not really working. Nixon and Kissinger decided that they wanted to escalate the war militarily. They met with a large team of people that included Joint staff members, Pacific Command and Military Assistance Command in Vietnam to try and come up with a military plan to get negotiations passed and force North Vietnam's hand. This was a fruitless effort. American casualties were declining due to withdrawal policies. The anti-war movement was still extremely strong and very fickle, and there was no solution that they could come up with. So we're still at a point where we don't want to escalate things militarily because we're almost out. If we do that, the public is going to be super upset. But at the same time, we don't have a solution yet. On November 3rd, 1969, Nixon made his silent majority speech. The speech was Nixon addressing the American people in an attempt to smooth things over politically, asking the people to give him more time and hold on to hope for a peace. In March of 1970, the North Vietnamese were forced by Cambodia to move their base camps west along the South Vietnamese border. Nixon sent the U.S. Ervin forces into Cambodia in April as a response because they felt that they were being aggressive and they also did not like Cambodians interference with hopes of taking the bases. This caused a lot more violent protests across college campuses in the U.S. and in Vietnam. The NBA camps were taken resulting in supplies and a district disruption of NBA command and logistics. So that was kind of a cluster. For the audience up there. One thing to understand about Cambodia is imagine there's this state of California like, imagine the shape of California and kind of how it like curves a little bit. Now imagine another chunk of like another land or another country outside of California that wraps all around that curve. That's Cambodia. And all things considered, America wasn't really allowed to do much in Cambodia. The American soldiers had to, for the most part, stay in Vietnam. So if California was Vietnam and Cambodia, like wrapped around California, the American soldiers couldn't use Cambodia. If they if they violated that too much. It would have turned into what could have been a world war like. They just weren't allowed to use it. But the Viet Cong could, and they did. And they used it to their advantage. So like when U.S. bombers started going into Cambodia, that's kind of a big deal because technically speaking, is not boots on the ground. But it's a military action. America is like, Oh, sorry, we just missed our drop in. We just so happened to hit some Viet Cong targets in the middle. Yeah. So it's the whole Cambodia thing is a fascinating part of the war to study because that whole country was caught in the middle of this weird fight. And there was a young guy or a history teacher there who is name was Pol Pot, that when all this was over, the North Vietnamese had to deal with Pol Pot. And Pol Pot was he didn't operate by any rules or any laws or anything like that. But. But yeah, I just wanted to kind of shed some light on the whole Cambodia aspect of it because it is a complicated part It is. of the And war. if I had gone super fool into that, this would have been like a four part episode. Gloss over. Yeah. This. This could Yeah. have been a college. And this entire subject is like a full on college class, so. I knew I knew the Vietnam era. Mm hmm. History Yep. professor says that that's all they taught was just this. And I even knew professors at ASU that solely focused on Vietnam as well as professors that only focused on social issues in America during Vietnam like that is all they do is live and breathe like 65 through 72. Like that's all they do. Yeah. So just know. Yet this It gig can you. get complicated really fast. Anything that I talk about her, it sounds like I'm just listing a bunch of things. I'm sorry. But they are important, and it's hard to put it into a narrative without that narrative lasting like four days. So if there's anything that I say that you want more information on or more details on, please go look it up. You'll be going down a rabbit hole. So. And if you find stuff that we messed up on, just email us at the dumpster fire days, dumpster fire at gmail.com. Like, feel free to blow us up. I'm totally open to being blown up. That sounds weird, and I don't want to be blown up, but blow me up. But don't like, don't send me a bomb and. Anyway. Cause I'd be weird. And continued to expand his offensive strategy in Vietnam. In early February of 1971, Arvin forces crossed into Laos and Cambodia. So the Southern Vietnamese army started to go into Laos and Cambodia. The North Vietnamese saw this coming and forced Ervin forces to withdraw and retreat and panic. So this was primarily Southern Vietnamese soldiers, not American soldiers. And the North Vietnamese easily, you know, protected their space and pushed them back. On a different front. Nixon knew that North Vietnam on Vietnam secret, meaning their secret to success, their special self was the backing of China and Russia. That's where they got most of their money from. They got a lot of support, ammunition, all of that stuff. He began to build relationships with both countries. Nixon did. Nixon wanted to create a dilemma for them. They wanted they had to choose right between the support of North Vietnam or creating a better relationship with the U.S. So he he forced them. Oh, that's clever. Choose between having a good relationship with one of the world's superpowers and fixing that relationship that's been broken for so long, or continue supporting the Communist North Vietnam or Vietnam problem. Oh, that. That's clever. I That didn't was his know goal. that. When he chose to diplomatically try to make things better. So it's either it's it's one of those things like, hey, it's either me or them. Pretty much. And we have the money, we have the manufacturing, we have the resources like and we're in the number one superpower. How do you really want to throw in all your chips on this one hand kind of a thing? And for a corrupt politician, that's pretty clever. Got to give him credit for that one. Yeah. There's a continued having summits with China, Russia well into 1972. And while it was a good effort, you got to give them credit for it. It didn't work. And Russia and China continued to support the communists in North Vietnam. On March 20th, 1972, the North Vietnamese sent 200,000 men in 14 divisions in a three pronged attack against the DMZ. So basically they had 200,000 men in 14 groups of people, and those 14 groups basically attacked the DMZ and in three locations. The Americans called this event the Easter offensive. It is a story, and so is a DMZ means demilitarized zone. And it was. Yeah, I said it in the first episode. I Yeah. Yeah. I'm just throwing it out there in case of got it. somebody. Let's do this before the loss of the first one. Meaning it's supposed to be neutral ground. You're not supposed to be sending military men through that. Yeah. Is the. The most broken thing ever. It was created on the 17th parallel, which is the line in Vietnam that separates the North and the South. Yeah. So North Vietnam pressed this super hard due to the withdrawal of U.S. troops and the underestimation of the ability of Arvin. Meaning they felt that the U.S. is withdrawing. They don't have as much U.S. support gun soldiers. And Arvin is a mess. Well, they they their assumptions were a little wrong. Arvin fought back and the U.S. troops who were present were able to support them. Well, using a combination of air power and tanks. So, yes, we don't have as much troops there, but we still have a lot of military might. That technology was there. Nixon chose to respond to the Easter offensive with a major air raid beginning in April, B-52 bombers escorted the fighter jets bomb escorted by fighter jets, bombed North Vietnam, North Vietnamese bases across Indochina and Guam. So for those of you don't know, Indochina is back in imperialist days. Indochina is the colonial Asian area that France owns. I'll put a map here, but. It gets complicated. Just like when It's complicated. I'm not going to go into it, But we'll we'll put in some pictures. Yeah. On May 8th, Naval forces targeted the North's harbors. This was called operation linebacker. Linebacker used air and sea to disrupt supplies and reinforce fins for both the and V and the Vietcong. And the continued air attacks forced Vietnam, North Vietnam to consider serious negotiations with both South Vietnam and the US. So Operation Linebacker actually did a pretty good job in trying to force North Vietnam to negotiate. Negotiations between the two sides remained at a deadlock again in an attempt to break it. Nixon ordered even more B-52 bombers because that's the American way. If it doesn't work, just bomb it. He ordered even more B-52 bombers in the middle of North Vietnam, called the Christmas bombings, while at the same time threatening South Vietnam of cutting off all aid. So essentially, he's bombing the heck out of the North Vietnamese while at the same time telling South Vietnam, figure your stuff out, we're done. Finally, peace agreements between North and south were settled on January 27th, 1973. These settlements allowed the U.S. to withdraw the rest of their troops and return P.O.W.s to their hometowns in the U.S.. Great for America, but North and South ignored all of that other stuff in the settlement and then went back to work once the Americans left. It's fine. Yeah. And I can't I can't name them because it's still kind of confidential. Were explosives of a mass destruction proportion. And he had to go from there, like over Moscow and then land in Spain. And like, this is, this is such a wild time when you really think about it. This whole craziness kind of came to a point here where this was the closest the world ever got to World War Three. When you factor in just the sheer amount of firepower that America was putting into and trying to, like, stop this or blow everything up. Kind of a mindset. It it's it's yeah it's. Read a book on it. It's crazy. After the Americans left Vietnam, Nixon tried to make threats to North Vietnam on Vietnam, saying he'd send B-52s back. He'd continue to bomb them and they'd come back. But those never came to fruition. Back in the States, there was a huge reluctance to send anything militarily back to Vietnam. As you can imagine, considering there's a lot of political disruption going on, there's also a lot of economic constraints that have. Let me ask you this question. I know you're like, oh, God, what is he going to ask? Do you think that the North Vietnamese understood what was going on in America at that time? Yes. Okay. So like, they fully understood that, hey, the longer we propel this, the worse it's going to get over there. Yes. Primarily the reason I say that is because back when the Tet offensive happened, they claimed that it was a victory for them because of the unrest in the U.S.. That's a. So. That's a pretty good answer. So what's. That's why I think they were aware. Nice. And they have I think still they have ambassadors over there and all of that stuff. So there's definitely a lot of communication going back and forth still. Got it. Okay. On top of all of that stuff, Nixon was now facing impeachment over the Watergate scandal. I'm not going to get into a lot of details over Watergate. That's the dumpster fire episode in its own right. If. Both of us are too afraid to attack that like. That one's interesting. And if you want to learn more about Watergate, please go ahead. I think there is a way to do an episode on Watergate without getting political. Yeah. We're going to have to throw out Democrat, Republican, like we're going to have to really put that out there where like, I don't feel comfortable doing that in this political climate, even though. Yeah. We're not trying to say who's right or wrong. I don't I'm not going on that path. But yeah, Watergate would be a very hard episode to do. Yeah. So Watergate happened. Wicked. And he was he was pretty preoccupied. Let's just. Vietnam kind of fell to the wayside after that. On August 9th, 1974, Nixon became the first and only president to resign from his position because of it. Like I said, I won't get too much into it. But that happened back in Vietnam. The South and Irvin, the South's army, proved to be not strong enough to take on the Communists on their own, and eventually the South fell. So the North in Vietnam was officially united under the communist government, and tanks rolled through Saigon on April 30th, 1975, essentially ending the Vietnam War. So who won? Probably the North. But, you know, America really took it to the teeth and it caused a lot of anxiety at home. While the original goal was to stop the spread of communism, amongst other things, it became a giant, expensive, huge dumpster fire that ultimately ended in a big failure. Yeah. Yeah, it's it it's kind of tricky because when we look at, like the U.S. troops, their artillery, you look at the armed forces. There were so many cases where these soldiers came home and were heavily criticized for what they had to do, not what they wanted to do. I know one man, um, in in Vietnam, America's strategy was like, kind of create these forts, I guess. But they would be loaded with cannons, and these forts could just target anything in any direction with, like, a couple of feet of accuracy. Like, it. It was wild what America, America's artillery could do. And I knew one man. I worked with him for a while and his job was to sit up on the walls of one of these forts and shoot women and children. He had to. That that was his orders. Anybody that came up to that for a woman and child, whatever, he had to shoot him. And what it was, it was because the North Viet Mini's were fully committed to winning this war and they were willing to do whatever it would take to win this war. So they would take women and make them look like they were holding a baby, but they were actually holding like dozens of sticks of dynamite. And so they would go up to the fort. And since Americans are not big fans of like women and children dying in a war, it it like if you talk to I don't know any German military guy from the 1940s if you can find any of them if you talk to any Japanese person you could talk to any, any enemy of America that's still alive today. They will all say that Americans are that's their weak spot is like shooting or destroying or killing children. And the North Vietnamese knew that. And so they would send women upholding dozens of sticks of dynamite up to the fort, saying that, hey, I'm the only one left, everybody's dead. The North Vietnamese killed my whole family. I need asylum. And then they would detonate and blow a hole in the wall of this fort. And then and then the North Vietnamese would come in and just like, try to overthrow the whole fort. So it's one of those things where it's just like the American forces were forced to do a lot of things they did not want to do, but they had to do a lot of things that was necessary to the cause. And I think there was a lot to be learned from this war. I think in terms of the American military, when we look at like Gulf Storm, we look at the war on terror, we look at, you know, just all the conflicts that we have, the world still is like, okay, we really do not want to pick an all out war fight with America because it's still it it will still not end well. And don't forget America is also very best friends with Britain, and Britain is quite capable themselves. So, yeah, this war is one of these things where I feel like it didn't need to happen. It shouldn't have happened. A lot of people died because of it. American forces demonstrated yet again their training and expertise. And I kind of have to wonder, like, was there really a victory in was there really a loss? Depends on how you look at it because. Yeah, that's the thing is. It's not I think it would be unfair for the people of Vietnam to discredit their place, not their place, but their role, because in the end, it was a civil war between North and South Vietnam. Yeah. And for me, I feel like in the end it was a victory for the North. And it wouldn't be fair for the efforts of South Vietnam to discredit any effort for anybody. Well, and that's the group of people that I feel the worst about is the South Vietnamese, because. Yeah. A lot of the Soviet meanies really didn't care about America. Like, I don't care. Like, I just want to just farm work, make a living. Like, I don't care what government we live under. Like, I don't. And there was a lot of Soviet Benes that was working with the North. And that that was probably the most complicated part because Americans came in trying to trust the South and that's part of the South was siding with the north. Part of the South was siding with America. Part of the South was just indifferent. And it makes me really wonder what would have happened if Britain got involved in the American Civil War, because that's kinda kind of the position. That's the only difference is, is that you're right, the north and south of Yemenis, they were in a civil war and America got involved. When you look at the American Civil War, it was the North versus the South. And Britain was watching on like, what part do we play? And. I don't think they if I remember correctly, they didn't want any part in that action. Actually, they did because of the southern cotton and. Well, there is that whole thing. We're not going Yeah. to. No, no, no. Yeah. No, I'm not going to get into that. But it was one of those things where, like, Abraham Lincoln was an absolute boss and he kind of, like, reached out to Queen Victoria and said, Hey, let's look at it this way. And Victoria was like, I agree. And then she backed off because don't forget, Britain had completely tried to blockade the North and and all that stuff. But then, then they backed. That has its own complexities to the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, what I'm saying is, it's just like. It's just so fascinating to me to look at the Vietnam War and look at what happened there with America getting involved versus, like the American Civil War and what what happened if Britain got involved. And yeah, it's one of those things where history repeats itself. But I don't know. I just don't know if there are any winners or losers in this because. Yeah, that's that's the thing about the Vietnam War, if you're looking at it from an American perspective. Well, especially today, like. Yeah. I'm sorry. The American troops did their jobs and they did it very well. Now, whether. Never said they didn't. Yeah, I know you don't like. I mean, I agree with you. It's just it's just like, okay, The American military did their jobs very well, but did they really need to be there? Right. And I guess that's still the question. It's just like to what degree? And that's why I don't want to become the president of the United States is because I don't know when to get involved. I also. Right. As soon as I do, I'm going to piss off half the world. It's tough. Yeah. Now, that's a that's a fascinating case study. And I was kind of wondering how you're going to do it. I know I said it in the first episode, but I was also kind of wondering like, how are you going to like, wrap this up, not make this versus like Democrats versus Republicans? And also just there is a lot of that going on back then as it is today. But I think the approach that you took is just like the average person, the average. Yeah, I. So what are we doing? Well, when it comes to this time period, it is it was highly politicized. But when you're going to do anything involving historical research, your best practice is to do an unbiased account. This is the facts. This is the events. You decide what was right or wrong, but this is what happened. And you take out of it what you will. Yeah. Yeah I, I agree and, and I think the one of the morals of the story is that who cares if somebody is right or wrong? Like, I don't know, I'm not going to pick a fight with somebody over something as arbitrary as politics. Like, I'm not going to hate somebody over that. And that that I feel like that was coming to a head in Vietnam. But but that's also excluding the race issues, the gay rights issues, the women. Yeah. I was going to say the complexities of this decade has to be taken into account. Yep. So. I Yeah, think. but. I think I remember saying, remember when you and I were in Austin and we were touring that museum that took us that the, uh, LBJ. Yeah. That took us, like, 3 hours to finally find it. Um. Yeah. And we were all gross when we got. Austin. You guys reign supreme when it comes to humidity. Yeah. That was awful. It was terrible. But yeah, I remember. I remember like going through the LBJ library and seeing everything and I'm just like, This sucks. Not. Not. The museum. The museum is. The music was great. Yeah, It was really nice. I encourage everybody to go there because there some really, really cool stuff in there, including a segment of the civil rights. Bill that he passed, which was like, you know, three stories tall and hundreds of volumes of laws. But I just looking at the stuff that he had to deal with and I could care less about his politics. It's just like, how do you. How do you manage that? Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot. It's kind of like when President Bush got in and. Yeah. The second one, Junior. I don't care about the politics, but like, man, he got in. There was a shuttle explosion they had to deal with and then 911 and then the whole thing in the Middle East. And then like economic recession and I. I don't care who's in office. That's an awful job. And I have no idea why anybody wants that job because. I wouldn't want to do it. I'm I'm good with, you know, doing my little history thing and teaching my classes. It's fine. Exactly. Yeah. And you look at anybody who's ever accepted the position of being president, United States. You look at them at the beginning of their term and the end of their term and they. They've Whether aged the. like ten years or four. I would say 20. I mean. Yeah. Like. Pretty. Four years is ten years of aging. When you look at the amount of stuff they have to deal with and it has nothing to do with, you know, who's right or wrong, it's just like, I don't know. To me, it's just the position of being president of the United States of America. Is it? I, I don't understand why anybody would want it. And I think there may come a day where, like, okay, guys, it's election season. Who's our nominees? And like, nobody raises their hand. I can see that happening someday. We're like, literally nobody wants a job. Kind of like being the Roman emperor at the later stages of the Roman Empire. It's like, who wants to be Roman emperor? I value my life. Thank you. The number one cause of death of Roman emperors was being a Roman emperor. So yeah, no, that that was awesome. I thoroughly enjoyed that. I actually learned a lot. I thought I knew my fair share of not like Vietnam stuff, but apparently. I don't know anything, so. A lot of it. That. Yeah, I took I took the approach of a lot of, um, homefront stuff. So that might be why I had, I had some military stuff in there. But my, my wheelhouse is like social stuff. So that's kind of the lens I went through it with. Yeah. You kind of remind me of that history, Professor. That. Not now. Not the stage in my life. Because, like, you're one of my best friends and everything, but I remember taking a Western civ class, like through World War Two. And I'm like, Cool. I'm taking a World War two class. I'm going to learn about battles because I'm like a man in his late twenties. This is what we study. This is awesome. And she's like, Yes, we're going to cover World War Two, but only from the perspective of women's propaganda. Sick. I'm like, Look, look. And then I look around. I'm like, I'm the only guy in the audience. He's probably. Loaded up on that grocery. I'm like, Wait, I took this course because I wanted to learn about, like World War Two battles, and now we're talking about like women's propaganda getting into the war, like. I was so frustrated with that because it is said that in the course description it didn't say anything about that. It was just Western civ World War Two. To me, that would be fascinating. That's the reason why I took it, because that course description was super fascinating and want to get in there. The professor was like, Yeah, we're going to look at it only from women's propaganda to get into the war. Well, that's what I'm saying. As a woman, that would be really fascinating. What? No, I took this because I learned battles. But then it was what's fascinating is I actually learned a lot. From that. And it's one of the reasons why I'm writing a book about the women who worked in the factories of World War Two. Yeah. Makes sense. So it worked out well. At the time, I took a typing course in Intro to Keyboarding because I was going to marry this girl in Junior high. And I got in there and I thought I was going to learn how to play like the keyboard, you know, like the electronic, like keyboard type of thing. And I'd get in there and there's no keyboards. Where are the pianos? Yeah. Where are the pianos and where is the love of my life? I'm just, like, looking around, like, where is she? She had dropped the course because for the same reasons why I was going to drop the course and. But it was too late for me, and I was stuck in there, so I had to learn how to type and again, this is much like that course in college. That was like one of the most useful courses I've ever taken. So there's there's something to be said about learning from your your dumpster fires, including the ones that involve Vietnam. And I do want to specify specifically for those Vietnam vets out there, you did a damn good job. You did your job, you did it well. You did it better than probably anybody else in history. And I don't think there's anybody in America now, at least not from my house, that has anything against any of them. And yeah, you sacrificed everything and that, I think, is the American victory out of it. Is these soldiers, these kids barely out of high school, did what they had to do. And yeah, there will never be any complaints from us, hopefully the millennial generation about what they went through, what they experienced, what they accomplished. So it's one of those things like that's the one thing I want to like really hone in on from my perspective. This episode is that the Americans, yeah, you did a bang up job and even though we backed out of it and technically speaking, the Communists won. Yeah, you American boys, you you did all right. Like I said, and I'll say it again, and I think they would agree it was a failure on the government's part. Yeah. That's what it was. Yeah, it was it was a failure on the leadership part to figure this out. And the ones who paid the price are the guys on the ground. That's usually how I view modern warfare in general, is the people in the offices making the decisions. That's a completely separate entity than the people on the ground. And I actually reduce it a little further. I think the ones that really, really pay the price, when I look back at all the history that I've studied and all the wars and all the stuff, the ones that ultimately pay the price are the children. Yeah. You said. I think you said that last episode. Yeah, it's that's whether it's a policy issue in a school or argument of teachers or whatever, I don't care any sort of problem. Conflict in the world between adults. The children are the ones that pay the price. And so it's one of those things like, hey, if you learn anything from this show, like bear in mind, if you're in the middle of a dumpster fire, your kids are going to be ultimately the ones that pay the price. Just keep that in mind as to how much crap you want to throw into that dumpster fire kind of. So, yeah, no, that was a great, great two episodes. I thoroughly enjoyed that. So if you like what we're doing, hit up our website where we are going to get that updated. Yeah, we're working on it. Working on it. We have an Instagram page and yet visit us on the day some Safaricom. Please email us. It's quite okay to email us at the times of via gmail.com. Like. Obviously you know smashed out like button you know hit that subscribe button. You can subscribe. It's good, but. But really like it. Honestly, if if you like what you're doing and if you have ideas for us, we are a community. We do listen to people. We do want more ideas. I think Nathaniel wants us to look at that. That guy that tried to take over is fall bard. That failed miserably. You know, I got an idea about Nazi scientists creating an anti nausea medication that resulted in thousands of birth defects. Like we do pick up ideas from the audience. It's so late. Yeah. Email us. You can also text us, which is kind of cool. So if you go to you can follow the links in the show notes. You can click on a link there where you can actually send us a text message. And don't worry, we're not I'm not posting carousel number on there. Not yet. No, please don't. Emails, phone. I get the emails on my phone. Yes. And I get the text messages. So yeah, if you want to send us a text message, go for it. It's kind of like the new thing that is being passed out from the podcast 2.0 movement. And yeah, like just just hit us up and then blow your family up. That sounds weird. Don't blow your family up. Like, let them know about the show. If you have that weird uncle that is all about smoking meat and studying World War Two history, that's a good candidate for this show. Like anybody who's into history, anybody who's into things going wrong, or if you've got somebody that you know that may be going through a rough time because they screwed up somewhere, that's where this show comes into play, because I assure you, yes, you may have screwed up, but there's always worse. Spread the word and let them know. And the easiest thing to do is just to grab their phone and then subscribe them. And then they'll get notifications and all that stuff. Because there's a lot of people out there in history as I just put in the microphone. There's a lot of people, a lot of history nuts out there that don't know how the whole podcasting thing works. Just grab it, subscribe to it, hit the notification thing, and then they can listen to it. Whenever we get an episode out. Kara Do you have anything you wanted to add? I pretty much covered it. What about your artwork? It's their. If you want to check out my artwork, you can see it on Instagram at Kay Small's dark drawers over there. So it's hanging out. She did some stuff about Napoleon that was amazing. In fact, one one of her drawings is a birthday present given to me, which once again a paycheck only to go buy a frame. I'm running on her as I'm looking around in my my office, I'm running out of room. Where to hang up your artwork. I'm thinking above my shells. There you go. With my Saturn five Rocket and Yoda. And so I may start I may start like classifying that part of the wall. The camera are all but yeah. Now check out check out her stuff. We also will have it on on the website. It's pretty epic stuff. It's very nicely done in terms of like themes of our episodes and and whatnot. So. So, yeah, thanks for joining us on this particular dumpster fire. And stay tuned because we have a special episode coming out involving our students. Please mind the audio quality. I had no idea what I was doing, but you know. We're learning. Know that by now for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in the meantime. Yeah. Guys, keep it a hot mess. By.