Vietnam War Fire Part 1 - Episode 41

Boy oh boy does Kara have an episode for you. In one of the biggest dumpster fires in American history, Kara dives into the first half of the Vietnam War. Yes! technically it's a "police action" but let's face it... it's an actual war when we look at how many people were involved and how many died on both sides.

In this part 1 episode Kara takes some of us down memory lane and the rest of us down a vivid history lesson into the factors that resulted in America sending literal teenagers to the jungles of Vietnam in the mid 1960s. Hopefully by the end of this episode you'll be able to go to your history teacher (assuming they're still alive or not locked up in a retirement community) and tell them how was it that America got involved in Vietnam and probably even be able to teach them a lesson or two in the process.

Be sure to check out our website: thedaysdumpsterfire.com for more details and some background on other episodes that Kara and Ed have produced 40 times over. That's right... Kara has put up enough of Ed to produce 40 episodes!!!

Also don't forget to email the folks at the thedaysdumpsterfire@gmail.com your own ideas and experiences. After all, as Ed likes to say, "keep it a hot mess" as we're all in this together!

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Transcript

Kara: 0:00

Hey, everybody, this is Kara. And this is a. And this is your days. Dumpster fire. Well, we don't celebrate humanity's successes. But its most fantastic failures. Perfect. Did it. It didn't forget. Play the O2. Wow. That was short. Yeah, I, I, I think I have a little bit too much, uh, head time on the modified shortened intro. I may have to play with that because it's like I click on it and then it waits like 5 seconds and then it starts flying. That's fine. We'll figure it out. Yeah. We got a humdinger of a topic for you guys. I'm proud of this one. Yeah, this is. This one's going to be a beast, man, and it's going to be a little heavier. Like the last one we did was Marvel's bulldozer, which, depending on the perspective you took, it was a dumpster fire for Marvel or it's a dumpster fire for the town. Thankfully, nobody got hurt. And there's some stuff that you can kind of laugh at because it's like a hillbilly on a rampage. But this topic, this one is going to be, well, I think it's the pinnacle of dumpster fires for the sixties and going into the seventies. I agree. So it's one of those things where I told my class a while ago that if you ever want to know anything about me, I, uh. You know how when you're in college, you have that one class that, like, kind of helps you find your principles and moralities and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That class that, like, makes you seethe. Little different. He's different. And hmm, maybe. Maybe I'm more interested in this than. That and maybe a little bit more. This was mine was movements in the sixties. All the movements like civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, all of that stuff. And the biggest one was was the the Vietnam War anti-war movement. And because that that particular movement kind of bred into everything. And I just dove deep into it, like not not not just the Vietnam War, Like all all of the things all of the sixties. Like, I'm not kidding. All of it. It's ridiculous. I turned into a hippie for a. Well, yeah. Well, you you look at the sixties, especially the Vietnam War. It is a massive collection of injustice. It's like one movement after another, after another after another. Like, I don't. I don't obviously, I haven't studied it in great, great detail, but I feel like there was more stuff that happened in the sixties than what happened in America in, say, like the 1850s leading up to the Civil War. Yeah, I it's one of those things where it's to me, I don't like to compare those two events, but there. I'm just talking about quantity of things going on. I could see that because it's one of those things where like 1865 and 1968 are both two very important years for two very different reasons. But we still need to talk about them. Well, I'm equating I'm equating America in 1960s to America. Got it. Okay. I see what you're saying. Okay. I'm with you now. I'm on board. Here we go. Okay. With a lot of the civil rights movements going on back then. And then there was the seeds are being planted for women's rights at that time and or being fostered. And then, yeah, just the protests and the riots and it's just like one thing after another. And the only thing that were lacking in the 1850s is, uh, a couple of rockets going to the moon. Or television. Yeah. And it's all. Television's a big one. Yeah, television. And I would even take it one step further and say, the invention of the TV dinner. Mhm. Yeah. The microwavable dinners are now the family. Instead of coming home and eating dinner and then going to listen to the radio for the next episode of Buck Rogers. Now you're coming home and you are, as a family, eating in front of a television and watching just the wealth of information that's just pouring out of this thing. And many thought that that would be the end of the human race. Like, television is just like you're just going to be too addicted to it and you will never focus on yourself and everything will fall to pieces. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Yes. Thankfully, we didn't fall to pieces in the with the television. Hopefully we don't fall to pieces with cell phones. But if you are never hearing our podcast ever again. For whatever reason, it's because the whole cell phone bubble popped and nobody can download her stuff. Great. All right, let's. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Let's get into it. I'm really curious. I purposely have not looked at the notes I didn't, like, dig up my old books on this time period because I just have a real bad habit of just, like, in rooms. Hold on, hold on, hold. Okay, I'm good. But, yeah, I'm leading into a an idea here. Just shut up and. Hold on, hold on. We'll get. Yeah, we're. We'll get there. So, yeah, I'm. I have no idea how you're going to approach this. I think you and I, when it comes to history, we do kinda, we kind of align, but we have, like, a diff. Quist. On events, which works out makes interesting conversation because there's nothing like going to a friend that you want to have a discussion on and you're like, Oh, hey, this happened because of X, Y, and Z. What do you think? I agree. Conversation end. Yeah. It's like, All right, I guess we'll move on. So. So, yeah, let's, uh. Let's hit it. Let's see. Uh, curious to see how you. All right. Let's go. But yeah, like I said before, this time period is my baby. I love it so very much. So let's get going. The American involvement in the Vietnam War. It is 1965. Lyndon Johnson is president. I Can't get No Satisfaction by the Rolling Stones is number one on Billboard's Hot 100 list. There's a TV in every living room. The Voting Rights Act was passed. Malcolm X was assassinated. No voting rights was passed in 65. It was the Civil Rights Act that was passed in 64. Sorry. Malcolm X was assassinated. R.I.P. Winston Churchill died at the age of 90. R.I.P.. I still don't know how he made it to 90. Crazy, right? Just morbidly obese, smoke cigars like every day, drank like a firehose like. Oh, and. I guess so. Good genes, I guess. The president had a reputation in America for being a person that waged war on poverty, segregation and Vietnam. The August 1965 edition of Times magazine wrote He is totally preoccupied with the war and with his pursuit of peace. And while Johnson did his best to move America forward, the war overtook his presidency. Even after it ended. With all of his good intentions, Johnson had trying to maintain peace in Vietnam. It still ended in failure. But why was it a dumpster fire? Why was America there in the first place? To answer these questions, we need to go back to the fifties, arguably before. But for our purposes, we'll go back to the fifties. It works. Yeah, it makes sense because like when we teach the Vietnam War in, like a modern day history class, like even when you go over the events that led up to that war starting and then you go and ask the kids, So what was the cause of this war? They're like, I, I don't know. There's so many things that went into it. It's not like bombing Pearl Harbor. And then now you're in a war or sinking the Lusitania, and now you're in a war here. It's just like. It's very gradual. Yeah, and it lasts a long time. And also, it's not a war. It is a war. It's a police action. In terms of America, it's a police action. But in terms of world history and in Vietnam, it's a war. Yes. Well, and the only reason why I mention it is because when it's a police action, there are certain constraints that the military has to adhere to. Whereas if it is voted by Congress to be a war, then it is now total war like everything is at the military's disposal to do whatever is necessary here. There was a great emphasis on at least maintaining a degree of humanitarian need and stuff like that. Whereas before and like World War Two, they don't care. Just blow the crap out of everything. Yeah, we're not doing all that. There's reasons for that. Yeah, but it's still yes, it is a war. There's enough people there. Enough people died. It's. It's a war. So we're going to start with the effects of the Cold War. So the Cold War could cover Soviet Russia. The Red Scare McCarthyism. Today, the fear of the Cold War seems really overblown. Like you look back at it, you're like, Wow. Why? And in some ways, to be fair, it probably was taken too far. Especially with McCarthyism and people losing their jobs and their livelihood and all of that stuff for no reason. Well. And my. My. Both my uncle. Because my my uncle was born in the late forties and my dad was born in 54. You know, like they remember the propaganda on the television and on the radio and the propaganda just screamed, What can you do for your country? Democracy, this democracy that saving freedom for everybody. And it was like the the push to be as American as possible in World War two, kind of revitalized in a way. Yeah. And there was some. The international communist threat. There was some you know, it was grounded in reality. There's some there's some something to it with dictatorships, you know, springing up in communistic societies, it makes sense as to why Americans were scared. And the U.S. resistance to it was something that deserves some merit. Yeah. Case in point. Look at Oppenheimer. Right. He did have some affiliations with some known communists, but was it really that bad? Congress, like, do we really have to make this big of a deal out of it? Congress and like, they could have taken something that could have been addressed at like a level three or four, but they just blew it to like a level 12. Yeah. And of course all the media and all that kind of stuff. When China was swept away by a communist dictator, Mao Zedong. The Americans were genuinely terrified and they didn't want that event to repeat in other countries that they were allied with. Especially economically. It would hurt really bad if, you know, like Columbia and Laos. Fell to communism. Well, And then didn't Churchill give that famous speech like the Iron Curtain has fallen on the stage of the world? Yeah. That's when Berlin was divided. Yeah, because I was shortly after. World War Two. So there's our boy, Winston. Here is. No, you can't. He has to have something to say. Always. In 1950, the Sino-Soviet treaty was signed by Stalin, Mao Zedong and Ho Chi Minh. Not long after that, Kim Il soon invaded South Korea. I'm sorry if I mispronounced that. Senator William Fulbright, who was in office at the time, explained the feeling of people in Congress during this time when communism was spreading, he says. Here we are in this deadly confrontation with the Russians, and we thought it's our duty to support them everywhere. So he was in the camp of We need to make sure that the Russians don't spread their greedy little red hands all over the world. Like the disease of communism. Yeah. It was like a plague. Kind of how they made it out to be like being corrupted by communism. And also, quick note about Kim Il sung. Don't worry if you mispronounce it, nobody in North Korea will get this anyways. Fair. At the same time, people in the State Department with any knowledge of Asian foreign affairs, traditions and cultures were kicked out during the McCarthy era, in which everyone was accused of being Communist at a spirit and speculation. That left a lot of ignorant people in foreign affairs in charge, especially in regards to Vietnam. And as the leader. And this is going to be a problem when it came. When it comes to Vietnam, because they they didn't have a full understanding of who Ho Chi Minh was. What was he doing there? They didn't really care. That's going to escalate. A young senator from Massachusetts at the time visited Saigon during the fifties, and he wrote this in his journal. We are more and more becoming colonialists in the minds of the people because everyone believes that we control the U.N. and because our wealth is supposedly inexhaustible. We will be damned if we do not do what the new nations want. In other words, what he's saying is we have a reputation that we have to uphold, but also we need to make sure that we can uphold it. I really see the word supposedly in exhaustive. The. And this is the first time I think we, we, I mean, I, I, I don't know. But it to me, it seems like this is the idea that, oh, America is running on a deficit and yeah, we have a lot of money, but we got to be careful about bankrupting ourselves. But then we also have to do what the world needs us to do. You want to take a guess? Ah, who that senator was. I believe that was Nixon. I was Kennedy. Kennedy. Oh, that's right. Nixon was a, uh. He was like a secretary of state. He met with Khrushchev. Yeah. That's. That's who I was thinking of. Yeah, well. During the fifties in Korea, it began to look like a defeat for the U.N. in the Korean War, expanding this fear of the spread of communism in Asia. So we have that building on our fear of communism in Asia. But in order to truly understand our dumpster fire, to truly, truly, truly understand this, we do need to look at the inner because it wasn't just communism. The Americans thought it was just communism and some other things, and we'll get to that. But communism was the driving factor. Let's say. America is really good at finding that common denominator. Yeah. American Idol wants a good, but we are prone to be like, okay, everything that is going on in the world of American politics is because of this one thing. And it's never that one thing. Yeah, it does. That's not how it works. It's because of a billion different things. Will. But whenever Americans argue about politics, it's always because of one policy and it's ruining it for everybody. We'll discuss the other factors that lead into this year pretty soon. But for right now, let's just think. Communism is a driving force. Vietnam in itself is a small country about the size of California, but longer and really narrow. The jungles are lush and the people had a lot of culture around them. They lived their life and tradition and family was everything. And it's actually a really interesting culture with a lot of cool history for thousands of years. Vietnam was ruled by China before they gained independence in 1426. By the 1880s, Vietnam became part of French Indochina by force. So this was during the imperialism craze that was happening in the late 1800s. In his book, Vietnam, Sir Max Hastings states that the French occupation was had occurred similarly to the American spread of the West, moving the native people to different areas as they went off and displacing them. The French desire for Vietnam was primarily due to due to the demand of rice and agricultural trade exports. So that's why they really wanted that. French culture began to spread into Vietnam during this time period. And that includes the French language, food, art, religion, the Catholicism religion. Catholicism began to spread throughout Vietnam. So now we have a camp of I think it's Buddhists and then a camp of Catholics, which will come into play a little bit later. Yeah. You've been all the way up to the point of the war. Cause I remember talking to one vet like, we can't attack that town. It's full of French folks. We've got to be careful here. And so, like the French, they got in there and they did not want to leave, which is kind of shocking because there's a war going on. But, you know, I can't speak for them. Later during the war, many American soldiers would go to Saigon in the South, and they were often reminded of France. They'd go there and to them it felt like a small French town in Asia. You can see interviews of of veterans, talk about talk about what it's like to go to Saigon. They'd have coffee and listen to music. It was really interesting, but it was like a little small French town in South Asia. Despite Francis impact on Vietnamese culture, especially in the larger cities, Vietnamese traditions, beliefs, superstitions, all of that really remains strong, especially in smaller rural villages. So while in the big cities you had a lot of French influence, you still had a lot of the traditional Vietnamese culture really hanging in there. As you can imagine with these differences, revolts were pretty common throughout the Vietnam. Throughout Vietnam. While under French rule, France did lose Indochina to Japan during World War Two, but regained control after the Allies victory over the Axis powers in 1945, the people of Indochina were subjected to heavy taxes to fund France's activities there. At the same time, about 70% of the local farmers and peasants were reduced to selling or working for French planters, French coal miners and owners, French rubber manufacturing owners and French landowners. There were a few hundred French families raking it in while the native people worked really hard underneath them for very little pay. And by 1943, almost half of Vietnam's land was owned by about 3% of its farmers. The French colonial system also valued the franc more than the local money system, making the cost of living even higher for the local people, especially those living in the smaller villages. While French aristocrats continued to benefit from the colonial systems they put in place. I always get a kick out of that because England did it. If France did it. Spain not so much. But they would come in and they would basically conquer this land. Tell everybody back home, Oh, we are helping these people. We are giving them technology and money and resources. And everybody at home is like, Cool, look at us. We are spreading what makes us so awesome all over the world. But then when you go to that place in the world, it's it's borderline slavery. Yeah, it's pretty. And. Yeah. Under under the propaganda that No, they like it. They want us to do this. Like that would actually be an episode unto itself. Just looking at imperialism, like in Africa. Oh boy. Did they get. Yeah, they got. Ripped to pieces for no reason. That's pretty bad. Imperialism really jacked up a lot of stuff. Here. The most prominent revolutionary out of this period for Vietnam especially is Ho Chi Minh. He was born Winston Truman in 1890 in a small central Vietnamese village. He would change his name over 70 times before settling on Ho Chi Minh. Creating a persona that people would willingly follow. He's an interesting guy. Have like a committee meeting, just like, okay, let's figure out a a new name because the new Ensign. Because I've heard it pronounced negation. I feel like that's the American way of saying it. But I've also I've known some news folks and they it's like new in, Yeah. new in. That's how I've always heard it. Oh, yeah. Okay. Uh, that. Yeah, I feel like they had to just sit down and be like, Okay, let's meet up with a different name. All 70 different names. Right. He was an interesting dude. Yeah. In the eyes of American politicians. In 1950, the first Indochina War was alarming. They believed that they were seeing the domino theory go into effect right before their eyes. The domino effect is essentially one Asian country for some reason is in Asia, but one Asian country falls to communism. All of the others follow. So that was Eisenhower, Who? Came up with that. I believe it was either Eisenhower, I think it was Eisenhower, and he. Again Eisenhower thing to do. Yeah. And he kind of put into place this idea that if one falls, all of the others are going to follow. So we have to stop this one. This one happened to be Vietnam. What they didn't realize is that Vietnam, all they wanted to do was get out from under the French rule. They just wanted to be independent. The U.S. decides to send a huge amount of money to aid France. The reason for this is the Vietnamese Ho Chi Minh in particular, had gone to summits and meetings with the U.S. and Britain and all of these other places asking for help to be supported for their independence. And they all basically ignored him. So he decided to go to Russia and China, and they gladly gave him the support. And we're kind of seeing that today. Certain countries are aligning with certain countries because they were ignored by one part of the world. And there you go to a competitor and be like, Hey, we need help. Sure thing. Come on over. Yeah. So when people talk about Ho Chi Minh, he was a nationalist before he was anything else. Yeah. There was obviously there's there's communism involved and communistic ideologically ideological ideologies involved. But he was a nationalist first, and that's something that U.S. politicians at the time failed to realize. Yeah, because I don't like the way the politicians looked at it. If you weren't if you weren't for democracy, then there was only communism. There was nothing in between. No grey area. You could have a guy that's like, Hey, look, we'll figure out the government thing later. I. Want my country. I really just want independence. That's it. Yeah, that's all I'm looking for. You guys can figure that stuff out. But let me just. Can I just get my country? And then go from there. But that's why the U.S. backed France instead of Vietnam initially is because Ho Chi Minh got aid from communistic governments. So the U.S. decided to send huge amounts of money to France, and they're now basically financing the conflict for the French. And it essentially tied them to Vietnam financially even after the conflict ended in 1954. So Vietnam technically won the Indochina War in 1954, but it's still going to continue. Like this is not over yet. Aiding the French was the decision that was based on the fears of communism, like you said. But there was also people who did not think that was the best decision. It was brought up in Congress that the French were losing the war because they refused to offer refused to offer the Vietnamese any reasonable option in negotiations. So there was discussions and there was conversations about how this could be handled better. It was just those who were afraid of communism went out this time. Don't forget the early 1950s America was dealing with the Korean War. Correct. So it was like basically America had to spearhead. And in the whole Asian region. The America had to spearhead all this either financially or with boots on the ground. And I bet that blew through so much money. When you think about how much it cost to get a military over there on top of funding another country's military. Oh, it's. Running. Crazy expensive. I think I have numbers in here. I think I remember typing. I remember typing them. I don't know. We'll see if they're here anyway. Yeah, Big numbers. Big numbers. By 1953, the U.S. was paying for 80% of the war. Now, here's the number, which amounted to about$1,000,000,000 per year. Eisenhower took Truman's policies, the guy before him and ran with them without question. He was like, this is good. We're going to keep going. Even the British government, they were like, What are you doing? A billion. A billion per year in the British government went to Eisenhower and they were like, Why? Word that is wild. And that's that's 1950s money, not today's money. 53. Yeah, I think like the whole space program to put a man on the moon was like three or $4 billion. Yeah, something like that. So that that's that's a lot of money. Lot. To be this throwing at a cause that nobody knows anything about. Geez. From this standpoint, the Americans had their eye on the Vietnamese affairs to make sure that con even communism did not spread the domino theory again. And they believed that if communism spread into Vietnam, it would go to Laos, it would go to Cambodia, and it would go to other parts of Asia that the U.S. cared more about. Like, let's face it, they didn't really care about Vietnam that much. It wasn't economically benefit to them. It didn't make sense. Yeah. Strategic. You're going to go off of this domino theory, then? That's I guess that's what they're going for. They genuinely believed this, though, like they genuinely believed the world would be taken over by communist dictators if they didn't stop it. So it's hard it's hard to not fault them, but you have to remember the time period. Yeah. Especially when you look at like Taiwan and or at that time I think it was Formosa. And then you look at Japan, there was a lot of economic prosperity associated with those two countries that were closely aligned with America. So, again, a boils down to this thing that I've said it a million times, like nothing happens in this country unless there's money to be had. And I wonder if, like Japan and Taiwan, if they had absolutely like America can make absolutely $0 off of it, if they would have pushed the spread of communism a little less. Or do you think it would have been. Nope. We can't have we can't have the communist spread. It would have been. We can't have the communist spread. Oh, is that strong, huh? Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, it was that strong for them. The Vietnamese people witnessed a lot of war atrocities from both the French and the Viet Minh. The Viet Minh were the the Little Communist coalition that were starting to form. Led by Ho Chi Minh. So we're not we're not we don't have like a fully realized communistic government quite yet. But the Viet Minh are the brainchild of that, and a lot of their points of view, they felt that they were being. They felt that being under the Americans could be better than being under France. They at least had the money and they are having other countries in the world. This view is especially true for people in the peasant class. Life for the Vietnamese peasant class was generally centered around rice. Working in rice paddies was a tough job. Work included paddling in the water uphill generally at nighttime because it's too hot during the day, fertilizing, weeding and cutting. It's hard work. Some peasants worked in towns and if they had the means and the culture of the peasants was centered around family in their village. Peasant class was full of culture and tradition and prominent religions were Catholicism of Buddhism, depending on the village. There's a lot of hardship, illness and poverty, especially in the South. So in South Vietnam, we have a lot of people who work super hard. They are still traditionally close with, you know, whatever they believe in. Catholicism and Buddhism. We're kind of sporadically spread out. There is a point where they separate. In the South, Ho's reputation spread and people began to form a smaller fighting force in his name. People were willing to convert to communism if it meant a better life for their family, but that didn't mean it was perfect. For example, children of those who turned to communism were taught to read and they went through education programs. It sounds really great. In some areas, though, people who couldn't read were constantly humiliated in various ways and they it was a conform or be punished kind of direction where victims were reminded that the cruelty was warranted for the greater good. So, yeah, sounds great. We're going to read and we're going to try to be better and all of this stuff. But if you don't do that, then we're going to brutally punish you. And the reading was probably propaganda leading towards a certain way. Probably I wouldn't You be. could ask these poor farmers back then, Hey, what's a communist? They're going to be a commu who? Yeah, they wouldn't know. Yeah, they're good. They're just trying to work. They're just trying to live in Vietnam. Just trying to make it. Not not be the middle of some socioeconomic, geopolitical, governmental way of thinking. Right. If the Viet Minh decided that somebody was the French spy. They were brutally and publicly murdered. One party's catchphrase was better that a possible innocent die is than that of a guilty man escapes. It's a great way of thinking. That the complete opposite of Revolutionary War America. But. Okay. The Viet Minh were the target landowners or government holders that had more wealth than they did, particularly in 1947. That was a bad case. Basically, if a person was French or wealthy or worse or poor, that was grounds for a very brutal murder. So good times. So that's kind of a rehash of what life was like, a little bit chaotic. A little bit of which side are you going to be on? And then we get to May 7th, 1954, in the 1954 Geneva Accords. Good old Geneva Accords. Yeah, that. That's a party right there. Oh, yeah. It So want the. to see a bunch of old stuffy men talk about? Settlements. Yeah. great. Yeah, it's a measure. Wasn't that during c span? Whew. That's Ooh. Yeah. I'm only going to spend four bullet points on this, so it's fine. You're welcome. So the Yemenis forces overtake the French base, Dien Bien Phu, and the French commander calls for a cease fire during the 55 day battle. 3000 French troops were killed and 8000 were injured. The Viet Minh lost 8000 men and 12,000 were injured. Despite the difference in numbers, the exhausted French decided to enter peace negotiations in Geneva. Politically, the Viet Minh and their supporters in Russia and China understood that after the Korean War they did not want U.S. troops in Vietnam. They did not want that. It's a bad day. While the French understood the state of their army, the Viet Minh understood the political stances of their supporters. This would be the basis for peace talks between the two sides. On July 24th, 1954, an agreement had been written. In a series of documents known as the Geneva Accords. It was decided that Vietnam would be split between North and South with a demilitarized zone in the middle along the 17th parallel of the country. I read it as the DMZ zone there, the DMZ, demilitarized zone. So I botched that first word and I'm sorry. Anyway, the communist Viet Minh would travel north and they would stay north while the French forces and the Viet Vietnamese who are not part of the communist Party would stay south. Nobody during any of this ever look at, you know, the 1850s leading to the 1860s America like. I don't think the minis or the French cared. Yeah, that's probably true. I just find it funny. Like, guys did you know that there's a time period where this is how it like making a north in the south? It doesn't work. Not for a cohesive government, that's for sure. Well, the goal was to have this division so they could figure out what kind of government each side wanted, and then they were going to hold elections. So that was the original purpose of this. And it was decided that Vietnam would be considered independent and then they would hold their elections in 1956, two years later, to decide what kind of government they wanted to be. And that didn't happen. Shocker. Yeah. That did not happen. And can you kind of understand at this point why I'm saying it's a little bit more than just communism as to why. Yeah. Why this was a little bit of an issue. Yeah, it's one of those things where there's just so many loose ends all. It's so much. Converging. And and like any you look at any civil war, it seems like that's what it is. There's so many loose ends that they couldn't figure out. I know, like in America, it was it was predominantly slavery, but there was a lot of little things like, you know, state representation in Congress and population and and vote counts and taxes and and all that stuff. But like, it was mostly the issue of slavery. But here it's like the same exact thing, just not necessarily about slavery, but there's so many loose ends that they couldn't figure out an answer to. So. Kill each other. Well, I have to say the South isn't that great as much as the North. Isn't that great? Here's why. Yeah, that didn't. That didn't help the American cause, that's for sure. Now. It's a bad deal all the way around in. Yeah. Yeah. The America kind of got lied to a lot. I don't know if they got lied to, though. Really? They knew. Oh. In 1954, South Vietnam chose no Dinh Diem as their prime minister. Jim was interesting. He was based in Saigon and consistently pushed to have more control in the north despite the agreements made by the accords. It's also important to note that the Americans did not agree with the accords and they allowed them with the urging of Churchill. The US. Boy. So I just I just want to note that right now, the U.S. did not like the accords. The U.S. now still supporting South Vietnam's financially sent statesmen to aid them. While waiting for the elections to occur. Diem began to take control of the South, fully funded by the U.S. government and during this period have refused to meet with the Viet Minh to discuss elections, claiming that he will not allow them to happen. Instead, Diem held separate elections in the South. Now, referring to his side of the division as the Republic of Vietnam. These elections were not supervised internationally as originally planned, and in Saigon, about 450,000 people were registered to vote in these elections. This math isn't math. Deme claims that 600,000 votes were marked for him and he was declared the president of the Republic of Vietnam. And with that, we now have a democratic republic, Viet and the North with its. Kind of kind of like the Democratic Republic of North Korea Yeah, that's pretty much it's very similar with its capital where. in Hanoi. Yeah, we're. Yeah. Like, kind of like Putin where he gets reelected with, like, a 99.8% approval rating, like. It's the same thing. Pretty sure that's not how that works in reality. But hey, man, you do you, I guess. So in the north, we have the Democratic Republic view of Republic of Vietnam. And in the South, we have the Republic of Vietnam. In Saigon. As of right now, historians believe that the elections were held per the accords. Ho Chi Minh would have won 80% of the vote. Which is probably why the Americans would not want the accords to happen. Yeah. About a million anti-communist Vietnamese fled south, many of them Catholic. While about 50,000 Viet Minh fighters and their families went north. So that's where we see that separation. we have a lot of Catholic Vietnamese in the South and a lot of Buddhist Vietnamese in the north. Yep. A majority of South Vietnam was Buddhist, but there was a section of Catholic believers in South Vietnam. Got that backwards. Dan was a Catholic and this led to issues during his rule before he was executed during a coup. The Army used his power in South Vietnam to create a dictatorship with himself at the helm. The people in the South were none too happy about this. Well, officials saw this as an opportunity under Diem life for the peasants return to what it was under France, and in some ways it was worse. Taxes and rent prices went higher, and there was brutality against anyone who was thought to support the Communists in the North. So I'm starting to see why the Americans were like, okay, I guess we'll support this guy. The people in the South began to revolt in the north, the communist government felt it was time to aid the peasants using the Ho Chi Minh Trail to get south. It's a trail that goes from North Vietnam through Laos and Cambodia down to South Vietnam. And they use that trail throughout the entire war. Guerrilla warfare eventually broke out between Diem's armed forces known as the Army of the Republic of Vietnam, or I will be calling them Arvin, because it's easier. ARVN and the peasant Communists team up under the name of the National Liberation Front, or the MNLF or the Viet Cong. I think some people get confused with this little part, and I did for a minute, too. But it's South Vietnam's army is Arvin. And then you have the NBA, which is the North Vietnam Army. And those guys are think of them as the official communist army of the North. And then you have the NLF or the Viet Cong. And those are the guys who go down south or those are the guys who are already down south against the southern Vietnam. Yeah. So those are the. It's almost like there's like separate wars being fought in a way. And I view it more as the Viet Cong are like the inside man for the North. Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I was kind of viewing it. Kind of like in World War Two, you had the Nazis, and then you had the German army, and they kind of worked independently of each other, even though they were both fighting, you know, the rest of the free world. I could see that. But I think the Viet Cong and the the NVA worked together. More Pretty. and Yeah. more closely. Meanwhile in America. From 1955 to 1961, the U.S. provided South Vietnam with $2 billion in aid. Oh. Along with engineers. I want to know what that is today. We can do it. Yeah. I'm sure. Okay.$2 billion. What is that? 1955. Yeah. To today worth. Okay. Okay. Oh, let's see here. Hundreds. Thousands. Okay. 23 and a half billion dollars. But today. Awesome. So that's how much the U.S. provided. Well, And keep in mind, too, that $2 billion back then is generated from a much smaller population. So, like, if you think about it. Okay. Yeah.$23.5 billion is a lot of money, but it's not is is great. It gets diluted over the fact that we have 350 million Americans. Back then, the population wasn't like that. So for them to fund$23 billion it would be is a lot tougher like the taxes on it is not a 1 to 1. Quite like what one would think. So in other words, the $2 billion hit the Americans paychecks a lot harder than the 23 billion hitting it today. They also sent engineers. They sent scientists, advisers, professionals to attempt to help rebuild South Vietnam. So during the time that Diem was ruling, I guess the U.S. was sending him all this stuff. U.S. officials called this efforts a miracle. But it wasn't exactly that. That's a that's a I've never heard of a dumpster fire called a miracle before. Well, it's a first for everything. Because, like, didn't he, like, turn around and sell a lot of that stuff Hmm. and do some really shady. Kind of like the the warlords in Africa like give them food and then they turn around, sell it to buy guns to control their people and. Yeah, we'll get there. Yeah. GM did all sorts of really shady, shady things. It's a good time.$85 million per year was spent on Arvin, but the army still suffered from manpower shortages and all of the rankings. Those who were commanders were inexperienced. Financial aid avoided economic collapse, but there was little to no industrial improvement outside of Saigon, with no effort to improve the lives of the peasants who made up 90% of the population. So yes, he went and spent it all on I don't know what, but not for what the. Yeah. Ended for. It probably would have been better If America is going to throw billions of dollars into something, just put it in a trash can, just light it on fire. Pretty much, Because like and union, you know, none of that's accounted for today. know. Like, nobody knows what that really went to. Yeah, well, in the U.S., a new president would take the helm. In early 1961, John F Kennedy, that Massachusetts senator that we talked about earlier. He won by a very small margin. I don't know if people remember that, but he actually won by a tiny, tiny bit and he would take the presidency. JFK had definitely a more understanding approach to foreign policy. Like, that was his gem. In 1962, the American military initiated limited air operations within South Vietnam in an effort to offer air support for the South Vietnamese forces to destroy suspected Viet Cong bases and spray herbicides such as Agent Orange. Oh. In the jungle cover. So the point was to try and get some of that jungle cover plant life nonsense. Out of the way so they could see what they were doing, but it actually caused a lot of damage. Like it was a bad deal. Yeah. Agent Orange is another episode Yeah, unto it. that's a whole thing. I'm not going to get into it. Just, you know, remember the name. Yeah. In Vietnam, Diem was attempting to reform the economy to appease Americans, while at the same time enacting new measures of repression against his people. His actions were immense, were met with Buddhist protests. So there's a really famous photograph about. These protests were largely street demonstrations, and monks would sit criss cross applesauce and set themselves on fire. This is called self-immolation. Their message was. Dumped gasoline all over themselves first and Mm then. hmm. Yeah, that's a rough. Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's rough, but they had a purpose. You know, their message was that of protest against DMS rule and the implication of his actions. I feel like, though, I would just resort to, like, sending letters. Me I'm a letter sending kind of guy. I'm not a dumb gasoline and like myself and fire kind of guy. I mean, that's a very. I don't think I would have the resolve to do that. I wouldn't either. I was just going to say that's a very American approach to read an angry letter. Yeah. Squeaky Very. wheel gets all the. Very British, very American. On November 1st, the South Vietnam Army, led by the generals, overthrew Diem's government, killing him and his brother during the coup. The coup itself shocked Kennedy, who began to worry about America's position at Vietnam. At this point, he had more than 16,000 servicemen. Millions, if not close to billions of dollars, have been spent and 109 Americans have already died there. In mid-November of 1963. Kennedy ordered a complete and detailed review of American policy in regard to Vietnam. He wanted all of the details. He wanted to know everything so they could safely disengage. A week later, he was assassinated. Interesting because I would have been really curious to see what that report. Yeah. I don't know. We don't know. That's. Yeah. I didn't, I, I, I mean, I was, I knew he was, he was assassinated, but I, I had no idea that that request for that report was done just as early as a week before. And this is one of the arguments the historians will argue about all day, every day. Historians still argue today whether or not Kennedy could have avoided war in Vietnam. We don't have a solid or affirmative answer, at least right now. People are still reading into it. People are still uncovering things. Historians are still working on it. But most agree that he probably would have ended up putting troops on the ground there or he would have found a way to back out like those of the two camps. Yeah. Dorian and either one or the other. But we don't really know because he died as Rob. Right. Adding. Yeah. And then and then when you look at the that that like coincidence. Right. Happening so close to each other over crosses in the report and then dying. That that is just food for conspiracy. Oh, yeah. I'm not going to talk about those, but it definitely is. Yeah. The man on the grassy knoll. And there, the shooter. That's a whole other thing. Forward into to the right. Whole other nonsense of craziness. Yeah. All right. So after Kennedy died, Lyndon Johnson assumed the presidential post as per his vice presidential duty. On November 22nd, 1963. Johnson was definitely more comfortable in domestic politics. Like foreign affairs was not his gym. That was Kennedy's gym. Despite that, though, he was adamant about the word success. And soon after Kennedy's death, he did state to one of his ambassadors. I am not going to be the president. If you saw Southeast Asia go the way China went. So I'm going to go on to kind of go back to why why did America enter this war? One, the domino theory to the fear of communism, which kind of is related to the domino theory. Three all of these presidents didn't want to be the president to lose Vietnam to communism. And then we'll get to the fourth one soon. But all of these presidents, Johnson, Nixon, Kennedy, they did not want to be the president to lose a communist at war. Meanwhile, the civil rights movement going We'll get there. And yeah there's, there's the like they've got Yes. Vietnam. But then the rest of America was kind of chaotic in its own right. And again, Johnson was definitely more comfortable in that regard. Domestic politics, that's his gym. He's ready for it. Johnson's presidency had a lot of domestic successes. He passed the Civil Rights Act. He passed the Voting Rights Act. He made progress in the space program. He expanded Kennedy's wants for the space program. He made additions to the Social Security Act for the elderly. He made Medicare and Medicaid possible. He made it what he called a war on poverty. He was really trying to get these social reform movements through for people who really needed it. But despite these successes, Johnson's decisions for Vietnam would follow him until his death in 1973. Meanwhile, well, that's going on. South Vietnam. Oh, I love it. South Vietnam was in dire straits without stable leadership. Johnson was told that if they don't rebuild soon in South Vietnam, they would fall to communism. And despite this, Johnson was reluctant to send troops to Vietnam for the duration of his first year in office. So there were conversations even back in 64 and 65, there were conversations of sending troops out there. And I know that historians have answered this question before, like, why? Why would it be a victory if they had sent troops before and went total war? Probably. But also, you're thinking about fully attacking a country protected by Russia and China. Which could cause World War three plus nukes. So there's a. Well in. There's a lot of things that they talked about, but they didn't do because of outside forces that they didn't want to deal with. Well, I also wonder if there was any sort of like policy of appeasement. Like any was there any conversations between, say, like America and Britain talking to the Soviet Union and in China and being like, okay, let's do like what we did in Europe and just split it up? Whoever wants to be with you guys, cool. The rest can stay with us. I feel like I mean, obviously we know what happened the last time and the world went down the path of the policy of appeasement. But I wonder if there were any discussions between the Democratic side and the Soviet side. Hey, let's work this out. But. Do you think it was just too few people falling on deaf ears? Could have been. I think if you think about after the Cuban Missile crisis, there was a little brief stint of maybe we can work something out. I could see that being a possibility. But because of the complexities of Vietnam in its own right, I don't think it would have worked. You're not you're not going to get enough people to align. Yeah. On any one thing. And on top of that, too. On top of that, too, because of who was in office at the time, JFK put a lot of guys in there who were they looked good on paper. Right. A lot of military generals in World War One and World War Two vets and and all this stuff. The problem was they weren't very good at politics. They didn't have a lot of political experience and they didn't have a lot of experience negotiating and avoiding war. That a lot of experience in war. But they didn't have a lot of experience avoiding war and. Sometimes it's not the best route to send people whose only thing that they have training on is making war. Yeah. To a situation where, hey, we need you to solve this diplomatically so there isn't going to be. Right. Just. And JFK learned that the hard way with the Bay of Pigs. That was a disaster because he listened to his military will. He listened to his advisers who were have a military background. When he died, Johnson inherited those advisers. And those are the people Johnson is listening to. Uh. In all fairness, I don't think a lot of vice presidents are kept in the inner circle that. No. The president. And I have a lot of respect for Johnson. I. I think he did his best with what he had, and I think he did a lot of good. And it's just that this whole Vietnam thing really overshadowed what he was trying to do. Yeah. So. Yeah, I agree with that. It's like Neville Chamberlain. He actually I think he kind of did a lot of good things, but the whole appeasement thing and Hitler just. Didn't work. Doing his own thing kind of messed everything Yeah. up. Which begs the question, then it's like, okay, you look at somebody like Churchill who, you know. Listen to was episode two or three, like Churchill saying he failed horribly in World War One, but he somehow came out of it. How does somebody like Johnson, who is doing really, really, really good things at home, but he's kind of floundering overseas? Like how does how does he change that reputation? Like Winston Churchill did. Oh, he tried. I bet. We'll get there. And I will tell you exactly what happened, because it's 1968, baby. But for now, in 64, by late spring, the Viet Cong forces began to show a lot more strength in the south, and they were aiding the communist forces for the NVA. Very much so. So now. Now the Viet Cong are starting to gain some some strength, and we're starting to gain strength. And South Vietnam is in utter chaos because they just went through a coup and lost a leader. It's good stuff. That's where we're at in August of. Yeah, I think I had a he was an international political theorist. Saw him at a like a dinner party. I was at one time and he said that America pretty good at fighting wars. America is pretty good at overtaking, you know, a country that was once a villain or an enemy. But America does not do a good job of reconstituting it. Look, America historically has always struggled to take over a country that was once an enemy and reshape it because they want to make it look like America. Yeah. When the keys do liquid Alexander the Great did, I'd be like, okay, I beat you guys, but I need you all to stay in your places and keep doing what you're doing. Pay your taxes. That's all I care about. Just. Exactly. Yeah. Meanwhile, America wanted to like, it's probably a little early, but put up McDonald's on every corner and the Circle K and in make them like everybody in Vietnam or before South Korea be the American Joe when they didn't want to be. Yeah, I could see that. In August of 1964, the North Vietnamese bombed the U.S.S. Maddox with torpedoes. This event urged Johnson to approve and expand airstrikes in North Vietnam while giving special attention to the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The goal was to disrupt manpower and supplies from the NLF to the Viet Cong in the South. So what happened was this USS Maddox was put in around and the North Vietnamese. Who regularly circulated that area, saw them and hit him with a torpedo. And then. Yeah. Johnson decided to respond with some air attacks. And on March 2nd, 1965, after a Viet Cong attack on a U.S. airbase called Pletka, probably said that wrong, but it sounds fun. The Johnson administration began a bombing campaign in an effort to show the might of the U.S. military, while at the same time trying to force North Vietnam to surrender. Slowly, their supply o slowed down their supply chain and boost South Vietnamese morale. So there they're hitting this Ho Chi Minh trail pretty hard. They're they're trying to scare off essentially the North Vietnamese forces. And this comes to the fourth reason, I guess, or a fifth reason maybe why America entered this war. The way they did is they're they're coming off of World War Two, big man on campus. Right. They have this reputation of being awesome. And we can win every war. We have lots of money. Cool It's to. going to look really, really cool. Some cool toys, but it's going to look really, really bad if they lose to some little country that has been under a French rule for the last however many years. Yeah. So now they have a reputation to keep. Well and. In elections to when? Oh, yeah, There's a lot of personal political decisions being made as well, and that's going to come to the forefront in a couple of years. Bombs weren't the only substances dropped during 64 and 65. Napalm was also dropped in 64 and 65. Napalm was a jelly like gasoline substance that was dropped throughout Vietnam. Napalm essentially stuck to the skin and then it melted the flesh. It's really nasty stuff. If you ever want horror images in your brain, look up. Napalm Yeah. is terrible. Yeah, I, I am shocked that napalm bombs were not considered against the Geneva Convention. Right. They did say like phosphorous grenades. America couldn't use those, but America could use napalm. And it is truly horrific. It's nasty. Stuff. Nasty. It's like a 55 gallon oil drum with an filled with like gelatinous jet fuel. So it burns really, really, really hot and it burns for a long time. And then if you get it on your skin, it has the same consistency as like strawberry jam. It doesn't come off it. It is. Yeah. Okay. My, uh, I have an uncle who was a B-52 bomber in Vietnam, and he said that it kind of look like when you're so high up in the air, it looked like glowing caterpillars on the ground. Because each one of these detonations could be over, like, a mile long. Yeah. And then imagine how many 55 gallon oil drums can fit inside of a B-52 bomber. And you're just dumping all that out in one area, just it must be an impressive sight to see. Yeah. But. But no, thank you. But the Viet Cong. I think they were prepared because they had tunnels. Yeah, we'll get there. We're almost there. So this March bombing campaign is called Operation Rolling Thunder. It lasted from 1965 and ended in 1968. For North Vietnam, they were aided by the Soviet Union and China, and they were able to construct an air defense system using anti-aircraft artillery, bomb proof tunnels. They built roads overnight all over the country. And this was super effective. This worked really well. The North Vietnamese shot down hundreds of American planes, pilots and airmen made up of a majority of P.O.W.s captured by the NBA and the Vietcong. So this was like one of those things where we planned it and it's a good idea, but it didn't work very well. Yeah. And they also did away with Calvary. The Calvary had turned into helicopters. Oh, yeah. Calvary was done away with before World War Two. Yeah. Yeah. Well, back then, it was the closest thing you would get would be like tanks and stuff like that. But Yeah. here, now, these helicopters, these Hueys, they could come in and drop hundreds of men strategically and tactically in one place and then get out of there and then if they need to get pulled out, they could come in and and get them out really, really fast. That was kind of like America's response to all the tunnels. The North had because I didn't there wasn't there like over a thousand miles of tunnels or something like that. The North had put together some point in time. I, I don't, I don't think that's the right number, but it's a wild amount. There were. Move people all over the place. Yeah, there were lots of tunnels and Heidi holes. And the Ho Chi Minh Trail was the biggest one. Yeah. Traps and. And then at the same time, North Vietnam used Rolling Thunder for propaganda. Basically, they said they're dropping bombs on us as well as napalm, and they're hitting civilians, too. They don't care who they hit. And in a way, they're kind of right. You're muted. You're muted. There we go. Yeah. I was on mute. Yeah, It's okay. Me. But yeah, it's not like there was going to be collateral damage. It's. It's not like a napalm bomb is very surgical in its accuracy. Kind of like a nuclear bomb. If you're plus or minus ten feet with a nuclear bomb, it doesn't matter. Same thing with napalm and the Viet Cong. They did a very good job of mixing like women and children in with their military forces, which then made it a lot harder for Americans to just bomb like you just didn't want to bomb an entire Viet Cong camp because there would be a lot of civilians in there as well. Yeah. And I will say to this, this war on both both sides had a lot of war atrocities happening. Yeah. So while, yes, there's a lot of collateral damage, it's also fair to say that they're kind of right. Yeah. They got on both sides. It's just it's it's really ugly. Yeah. And this. This was a war all about creativity. What new thing can you come up with to really hurt the other side? Yeah. And It's and like boy, a. did Americans suffer a lot of losses because of of that. Yeah, it's kind of like, um. World War One is the definition of that. Yeah. So I guess you could kind of compare those two wars in that regard. But. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, historians today still argue over the morality and the effectiveness of Rolling Thunder for those reasons. All right. 1965 after Rolling Thunder. Well, during Rolling Thunder, I should say, concerned about the Vietcong response to the Rolling Thunder operation. General Westmoreland requested two Marine infantry units to defend Air Force bases at Danang. Sorry. Okay, cool. Maxwell Taylor did not like this idea of sending troops. He didn't believe that it was sustainable to have combat troops fight a guerrilla war on the other side of the world. Despite Taylor's reservations, the U.S. did send troops to Danang. On March eight, 1965. It's important to note that arguments in Washington had been ongoing about sending troops in Vietnam since 1954. It was a decision that had been in the air for 11 years, and it was a decision that was not taken lightly. So sending troops, boots on the ground, that was very different than aiding and. Sending money. Yeah. So this was like a big deal. In 1965, the general population in the U.S. was supportive of this decision. Many people believed that the U.S. military was a military that could not be defeated, and it was their hero duty to protect the world from communism. And that's how he sold it. In reality, those making the decisions were fully aware of the risks this decision posed to them, and they were very careful in what information they gave the media and the public. Oh, yeah. Despite the general Yeah. good. I was going to say, because this was and, you know, I'm sure you cover it here, but this was the first televised war. Oh, yeah. We'll get there. Nothing could be kept a secret, like if Yeah. there was stuff going on on the ground. The media would find out about it, which I think that played a huge part in turning the public against this war. Yeah, we'll get there. It's a big. Um. I'm not reading ahead, I promise. No, no, no. You're fine. You're good. Despite the general opinion of the people, there were protests and protests really came came up more frequently during the civil rights movements in the early sixties, late fifties, and then people began to protest about other things on top of civil rights. So now people are protesting for like on college campuses. It was free speech for a little bit. And then civil rights is always a through line. And then people are starting to protest the war. And there was a particular protest early on in March. There was a march on Washington and it was made up of college students, and it occurred early May of 1965. So not too long after the troops were sent to Vietnam. And this led to a five day pause of bombing to appease the protests before they just continued bombing again. I mean, five days. Did they announce, okay, we'll have five days of peace or did they just kind of stop it in the end to say, hey, we're stopping it? And then after five days, they kind of ramped it back up? Or did they agree, like, okay, guys, five days, no more bombing. I think it was five days and we're bombing to just like, calm down. Kind of. Kind of like with the whole thing with. Hamas and Israel, like Israel, will have to stop their forces for humanitarian stuff to come in and then it'll pick back up and Yeah, then I they think. stop. And then. I think it's something like that. Yeah. The general opinion of this decision is that the U.S. overestimated their abilities and underestimated the abilities and complexities of the Vietnamese. Yeah. It's. That. Once in Vietnam, the American troops had to get used to their aavin counterparts and the Vietnamese culture. So can you imagine an American boy from Kansas drop ing into Vietnam? And the weather is hot, it's muggy and gross. The language was different. The culture was very alien and at the same time, for the South Vietnamese, the Americans stood out really, really well. They're tall Harrys sweaty men walking around big white guys. Yeah. So some black guys thrown in there, some Hispanic guys like this is this is a war that's actually more diverse than people make it out to be. But you can still you can still point them out like there's the American. Yeah. Whereas like the Viet, the Japanese, the North and the South are the same people. Yeah. And I know a lot of the aavin there was officers in there that were actively selling the north like American locations and plans and and all that stuff because, well, they think I'm on their side, so I'll get a bunch of information from from the Americans and then just like turn around and give your counterpart a call in the North and. MC Oh, America is going to be up here at this time Oh, yeah. and be prepared. I have been, especially in the beginning and with troops who were new. Yeah. Green troops. Green, green grunts. They called him grunts because their packs were so heavy when they lifted them, they always grunted. So if you ever want to Yeah. know where that came from, for the Americans, it was increasingly difficult to pinpoint who was Arvin and who was Vietcong. The Vietcong tactic was to blend in with villages up and down the country, and they used their environment as well to blend in and surprise attack enemies. One infantryman said, My time in Vietnam is the memory of ignorance. I didn't know the language. I knew nothing about the village community. I knew nothing about the aims of the people, whether they were for or against the war. I just I was confused. I can only imagine what that was like. Well, and something that I think really gets overlooked. And I and I see you're going to get into the television parts, so I'm not going to hone in on that as much. But when we think of the soldiers going into Vietnam, they were a highly trained and Oh, kids. yeah, I. And. Go ahead. And they when they got in there, like the first real major battle of Vietnam, like forces against forces was drang, where an entire division of Vietcong buried in these tunnels in this mountain fort. One battalion of American Air Calvary. And it was like 400 men against like 6000. Yeah. And somehow the Americans, with their more advanced artillery, the use of the helicopters, you know, just the more accurate guns, the training they fought. Well, they really, really did. And I think people lose sight that these guys really did. Oh, yeah. Do a pretty good job. Yeah. No, they did. It's nothing on them, too. I think if you talk to anybody who knows their history, they never blame the soldiers for this conflict. The soldiers are never blamed. Um, I kind of disagree with that. Okay. One of the they did studies on suicide rates and suicide rates for. I'm talking. Coming home from Vietnam Okay. were the highest ever because Let me. they were called baby killers and. Okay. Okay. Hold on. Let me let me clarify. If you talk to somebody today who knows their history. Oh, okay. They're not going to blame the soldiers. But yes, if you're going to talk about contemporary people, when they got home, they were treated really poorly. Yeah. Like they were considered nothing like the Americans in World War Two. And, you know, and even World War Two vets were highly critical of returning soldiers because it's like I defeated the Japanese. Like, there's Vietnam isn't any more technologically advanced, is Japanese. What's wrong with you? And a lot of these men who came home were basically told that they were failures, that they're the worst generation. They can't amount to anything. But in reality, they did a really good job when it came to, like, actual. Yeah. Whiting. Yeah. But there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that ruined it for him. Oh, yeah. Like that. That's another really complicated thing about this war, is that when they came back, we can talk about this later. But when they came back, you had a lot of the population who hated them, and then you had a lot of the population that supported them. Yeah. And during this time period, America was divided on this issue and they were divided on this issue even after the issue was no longer an issue. Yeah. It's like. It's crazy that the divides that happened during this time period. Yeah, because compared to World War Two. Everybody Every was united. soldier was a hero Yep. like everybody. America was victorious. America is unstoppable. Like you mentioned earlier. Like everybody should become an American. It's fantastic. Meanwhile, these guys are coming home after their government failed them. And abstract, weird policies and rules that they weren't allowed to break. And some other weird incentives like giving somebody a raise if they take a certain hill. Like an officer started making really bad decisions in a they were failed. And so many regard. And then they come home and they're treated this way. It's just yeah, it's I knew a lot of them. I knew a lot growing up in that retirement community that were retiring when I was in my teens. And yeah, it was it was interesting getting getting their stories. But over time, though, I think America and even World War Two vets over time was like, okay, war sucks. Yeah. It doesn't matter who you're fighting or where you're at. It's about to show. Yeah, it's just bad. No matter what. Yeah. There's just. So I'm glad that changed. But yeah, it was it was brutal back then. We're going to go back to 1965. Rise, especially back in the U.S., television and news broadcasters began sending reporters to Vietnam and the U.S. About 93% of homes had a television. And once troops hit the ground, those news stations, they wanted to capitalize on that action and they wanted to increase those numbers because that's that's gold TV gold right there. So while the government was careful in what they told the public, the media was participating in making Vietnam the first televised war in history. So that's going to be an ongoing thing and it's going to really hit home here in a couple of years. By the beginning of 1966, there were up to 250,000 troops in Vietnam, with Saigon becoming a hub for American soldiers. General Westmoreland took great care of his soldiers morale. He wanted to make sure that their tours on duty was limited to one year. Saigon would have food supplies, even ice cream. Still, Vietnam was a place that was extremely unfamiliar and really scary for a lot of soldiers fighting. Washington continued to bomb Vietnam. Westmoreland began his war on a war of attrition in Vietnam, and the goal was to get Hanoi to surrender against the might of the American military. So we have Westmoreland going ham, and then we have Washington also going ham. And the point was to try to get the north to surrender. But here's the thing. The north is supported by Russia and China and they're also you know, they're on the defense. So they're automatically going to be a favor. Well, yeah. And the baby needs. I think they understood the value of a strategic retreat. Yeah. And very much like the Russians in in Napoleon's Russia campaign, they would put up a fight and then just out of nowhere retreat, and then the Americans would chase them and then get ambushed. That happened. Happened a lot. And I do also want to note, too, that the way it used to be taught is and I think the reputation this war has is everybody was Vietcong and everybody was hiding and popping out of holes, but it was really a mix of both pitched battle and guerrilla warfare. It was a mix of both like the NVA, the North Vietnamese Army. They were they were in uniform. You could you could point them out. You could see who they were. So not not the entire NVA army was, you know, in foxholes and popping out of tunnels and stuff. It was a little bit of both. And I think that was strategically more valuable to them than if it were like entirely guerrilla warfare. Yeah. That the Viet Cong was very much into the guerilla warfare part. Like they. Oh, that was there, Jim. Yes. And then the VA was more classically trained, I guess. They're the ones that for a lot of those leaders were the ones that fought the French like ten years prior. So by 1966, Arvin was running at a men and it was on the brink of collapse. The U.S. forces were put in a position to make up for it. But despite the amount of U.S. men entering South Vietnam, the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese proved to be a worthy opponent again and again and again. And at the same time, we are also starting to see the draft come in. So now we're getting men who don't really want to be there. Yeah. A number of American air emissions by helicopter proved to be failures as they were easy targets and they were shot down like by rockets and grenades. On top of that, land battles proved to be very difficult. Marching troops were often ambushed and outmatched in the rugged terrain. And at the same time and via fighters targeted. Artillery fire bases throughout South Vietnam and attempts to limit aavin and U.S. resources. So we're getting hammered. Yeah, I don't. I think I understand what you mean by the helicopters proving to be failures. They just weren't effective. Oh, I don't know. They were bullet magnets. That's for sure. And they were very delicate bullet magnets just because of the how they were engineered. But they did. A really, really That. good job getting soldiers in and out. So if if you were if you were injured as an American in Vietnam, chances are you stood a good chance of getting into a helicopter and getting out. Whereas if you're on the north side, you were just there until and toll's ready to pack up and leave or whatnot. And the other thing too, the helicopters did a fairly decent job with was reconnaissance. And so they would fly up super high. And then they also did a lot of air support. So like the helicopters, because they had machine gunners on there, they had grenade launchers on there. They it's really weird in terms of like, was it a device that proved to be divisive and, you know, really won the day? Say, like a like a tank would it? Or like the M1 Garand in World War Two is regarded as like the finest rifle ever made. Is the Huey that thing? No, but it really did give American. American strategists an option. And they when there was quite a few times, like Lieutenant Colonel Hal Moore commented on the battle, he had drawings, like, there is no way we could have won that fight without those choppers. There's there's this nut that they would have ran out of bullets and water in 24 hours and then been screwed. So. I'm not saying they are completely useless. I'm saying that these particular missions in 1966 were failures. Yeah, like I guess in many aspects what they thought they were going to be good for, it wasn't, but then they became good at other things. Right. They figured it out. Repurposed, I guess you could say. I'm not going to go into a ton of details in terms of battles. I know. I got Hey. a. I can't. Yeah, that. That's more my jam. But yeah, I'll, uh. I'll refrain. Nit picking it. It's okay. That'd be like me nit picking the home front. Yeah. But. And I. Trust me, I had to control myself. Here we go. March 5th, 1966. We have a Viet Cong attack on a U.S. brigade and is fended off by the U.S. air support. On March 7th, U.S. forces were attacked by Viet Cong again, but were forced to retreat from heavy artillery. In April 2nd May 1966, Operation Birmingham, more than 5000 U.S. troops, helicopters and armored vehicles sweep through the area north of Saigon. Only 100 Viet Cong were killed, and most of the battles during this operation were dictated by Viet Cong. Not the U.S. made a June 1966 battle breaks out along the demilitarized zone between NVA and U.S. forces, the largest battle to date. Arvin and U.S. forces are able to drive the NPA troops back over the DMZ. June 30th, 1966. U.S. forces are attacked by Viet Cong and the Viet Nam Cambodian border. Only air and artillery support were able to prevent complete disaster. July 1966 and VA lose nearly 1300 troops. October, 1966 Viet Cong Prepare a new offensive with support and reinforcements from the Ho Chi Minh Trail. By the end of 1966, the number of U.S. soldiers in Vietnam. Reached 385,000 men. More than 6000 troops were killed and 30,000 were wounded. 61,000 Viet Cong had been killed. However, the number of troops increased to 2800 or to 280,000. Numbers are hard. Numbers are hard, man. Let's just say that the Viet Cong and the NVA forces are able to replenish their troops a lot faster than the U.S. Yeah. for obvious reasons, like it's the distance is immense. Yeah, they would sustain a lot more losses, but they were able to get reinforcements quicker. January 1967, Operation Cedar Falls begins and ends with U.S. and Arvin troops finding huge quantities of supplies. The 19 day operation resulted in 72 Americans killed from snipers in tunnels and booby traps. 720 Viet Cong troops are killed. February 1967 Operation Junction City 240 helicopters sweep a province north of Saigon with a goal of destroying Vietcong bases and headquarters in the south. Despite the huge number of helicopters, 30,000 U.S. troops and 5000 Arvin troops, no major battles occurred and the U.S. received a bunch of resources. They did not, however, destroy Viet Cong headquarters. April to May, 1967, Air battles over North Vietnam results in 26 down NVA jets, as well as heavy damage to North Vietnamese runways and air infrastructure and the fall of 1967. The NVA in Hanoi begin preparing the Tet Offensive. I. Going to I'm going to end it with this this little love bird of quote on the home front. Pressure is building amongst the public opinion of the war. By 1967, a growing number of people, even those who were in the midst of their own reform movements, such as civil rights, began becoming more outspoken. Quote, Then came the buildup in Vietnam. And I watched this program broken and eviscerated as if it were some idle political plaything of a society gone mad on war. And I knew that America would never invest necessary funds or energies in rehabilitation of its poor so long as adventures like Vietnam continue to draw men in skills and money like some demonic, destructive suction tube. So I was increasingly compelled to see the war as an enemy of the poor and attack it as such. Perhaps a more tragic recognition of reality took place when it became clear to me that the war was doing far more devastating the hopes of the poor at home. It was sending their sons and their brothers and their husbands to fight and die in extraordinarily high positions or proportions. Sorry relative of the rest of the population. Martin Luther King Jr. April 4th, 1967. That guy can write. You know, when I was reading that, I was thinking, I really cannot speak like Martin Luther King. I'm going to do my best. Yeah. Like like Vietnam continued to draw men in skills and money, like some demonic, destructive suction tube that is just so. It's like when Olaudah Equiano was commenting that, like, slavery is a refinement of human suffering. In terms of like, that's all humans do is just figure out a way to make each other suffer. That's kind of like Martin Luther King's, you know, statement about, you know, war in general and what it takes. It's a yeah, he's he's a heck of a writer. That guy. Yeah, he. Him and a lot of other civil rights leaders before 67. They were kind of in a hard spot because at home they didn't want to take attention away from what they were trying to do. And it started to become increasingly more difficult the worse the war got and the more televised it was. And essentially, in this really famous speech, he says all of this, but also he says it's and I need to make sure that my opinions are heard. So. Yeah, We'll end it there. Mr.. Yeah. Mr. King. Dr. King. And then we'll take it up next time with the Tet Offensive and 1968. Heck of a year. Yeah. And I like how I don't like, but I. I can see how this is already a dumpster fire. Already you see it? It's not. Yeah, it's it's not like the American Civil War where it was humming along smoothly until, like Gettysburg. And then it started to go literally south for the south right here. It just started off as a hot, hot mess and just got worse. And the thing is, you know, I'm looking at your bullet points of time here, like America when it came to a large scale attack. Kind of like kind of like what America was used to in World War Two when it came to a large scale attack. It it it did better. Kind of like Napoleon did better when he could square up against the Russians and outmaneuver them out, strategize them out, cannon them. The same thing like with the American Revolutionary War. It. Washington He if he tried to get all of his men to square up against the British, British always won. But then the defending side would be forced to think differently and look at more creative ways. And what we see is, yeah, the NBA and the Vietcong are like, Yeah, there's no way we can beat America in a large scale attack. So we're going to demoralize them and we're going to make it. Any victory they do get is going to just be a nightmare. I think I would argue, too, that it's cultural. Yeah. I'd say it's yeah, they had to be creative, but I'd also say it's a cultural thing. Yeah. Because. They're fighting for their own freedom. They're fighting for their own freedom and they're fighting the way they know how. And a lot of historians that I've been reading and watching, they'll say America's biggest, not biggest, but one of America's problems was that they were trying to fight an American war. Yeah. Somewhere where they shouldn't have been fighting an American war. Yeah. Oh, What is that line from the Batman movie? The last one, Dark Knight Rises. Where Bane is fighting Batman in that, like, sewer bridge thingy. And he makes a comment in there as he's just beating Batman Man to a pulp. He makes a very interesting comment. He's like, Victory has defeated you, Bruce. Yeah, that's Meaning relevant. just because you win, like when you win something, you don't learn much. Hmm. The time to learn is when you lose. And since America was so powerful, so massive and so influential that. They thought that was going to work. Yeah, they thought it was going to be a quick, easy in and out thing and no. Yeah. Draw it out for as long as possible. Eventually, the public will turn. I remember when Bush, the Iraqi freedom after 911. Every American was on board with absolutely teaching the Middle East a massive lesson. But then over time, as it goes on for like over a decade. It's like, okay, what are we here for again? Like what? What are we supposed to be doing? You kind of lose your purpose. It goes from a act of like purpose and drive and sense of national ism and pride to like monotony. Mundane. It is the 9 to 5 Monday through Friday thing and but you're being thrown curveballs on after hours and it's just like where where is this going? And it kind of I think led to this burnout. I think in some ways it did. All like a social burnout in terms of what people are seeing at home on the televisions after. You know, I bet like the first year, two or three, is that cool? Like, this is awesome. But then when it's every single night, it's just. Well, it gets worse and worse and worse. Yeah, like. Better. And yes, it's true. And then by the time you do get to 67, 68, they're at a dead stalemate. Yeah. And you're like, What are we doing? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like when when you or your fellow soldiers start forgetting why they're there. The war's pretty much over. Yeah, you lost. If you lose the home front, you lose the war. Yeah. And if one. If you lose your purpose. Oh, yeah, that's. What are you fighting for? Yeah. Like, why am I even here? And then therefore, you're not going to try anymore. You're just going to do the bare minimum to just get home. Right. Which is something that we're kind of seeing with like Ukraine. We're starting to see like Russian soldiers because it's being drawn out for like the third year now. Like we're seeing more and more Russian Russian soldiers. It's like, why? What are we doing? Like, meanwhile, Ukraine is like, this is we're defending our home. And so, like, who knows how that's going to turn out? But it is. We see this time and time again. Look as Thermopylae 300 purpose driven Spartans against, you know, tens of thousands. And they they did a lot more damage to to the Persians than they lost. Isn't it cool that we have enough episodes behind us where we can start seeing trends in in history now? And like, I'm kind of getting an idea, a basic idea of like, what really makes a dumpster fire burn bright? Oh, yeah. Like Damon. But, yeah, I'm. For the next part, because that's my bread and butter. Yeah. No, that's. That's awesome. That. That I'm really excited how you approach that. And I don't know how you're going to dance around Democrats and Republicans and all that kind of stuff. It really didn't matter No, all that it much. doesn't. It really doesn't matter. Because even even when we get to the election of 1968, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. That people are making. Yeah, I always thought this was a highly polarizing political thing, but I'm starting to see that it's not as much as maybe when it came to budget and and stuff like that. Maybe that was a little more. Partisan. Yes. But in terms of this whole fiasco. Yeah, I could see why there's no point in even bringing them up. Yes, there the election of 64. It was Johnson and Moses and gold water Goldwater. Yeah. Barry Goldwater. Yeah. And Goldwater was very on the extreme side for the time period where, you know, he he didn't want to spend any money and he didn't care about the. Movements in and all of that stuff. And he was very, very extreme for the time I could have gone into that, but I didn't have to because it's not really a part of this conversation. Yeah, like this. This narrative doesn't benefit from it. Yeah, but I mean, at the same time too, it's so long ago that it doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah, that that helps too versus say like, you know, 22 years ago it was. That's still a little fresh on people's minds, especially if you're talking to a millennial like that that's still with them. By the time we are in our eighties, it'll be kind of like the same thing. It's just like, Yeah, we can move on from polarizing politics, from, you know, from from the 20 tens like. Yeah. That debt is so 2010, not the cool thing that's happening now, whatever that will be. And at this time period too, it was, at least in my opinion, it was a little bit more defined by social politics. And it was a little more clear, I guess, for this for me and I'm sure others, especially if you're living during the time period, it's not clear if you're living during the time period and you're living through all of this nonsense. I can. Yeah, we're. Of course, you're going to have your opinions and you're going to have your thoughts and ideas and you want to share them. Obviously, people are sharing them. People are marching. People are protesting. People are angry. People are upset. Yeah, well, I learned lot because, yeah, I'm a huge World War two nut again. When if you're a millennial, when a man turns 30, 35, his life revolves around smoking meats and barbecue and World War two history. That's how you can tell a man has hit his middle aged time period. But I remember talking to a World War two vets and I was thinking, Oh, man, I'm going to learn all about the strategy and how the battles were fought and this and that. They had no idea. No. They literally were the worst source when it came to, like the big picture. Yeah. No, the big picture is a combination of a lot of little individual pictures. Yeah. Yeah. Now, if I wanted to know, like, what it was like to be there. Yeah. Now that's a different story. But if I wanted to see, like how the Battle of Okinawa took place, you need maps, you need a textbook, you need you need a bigger picture. You're focusing on generals. You're not you're not looking at Bob. Who is? On the ground trying not to get shot by Japanese snipers. They're not worried about the big picture. No. So, yeah, that was one of those little life lessons that I learned early on, like, oh, it's really tough to talk to these guys about the bigger picture. Like, they just they don't know. They were just. They're just doing their. Yeah, they're just doing their job. Right. No, that's awesome. That's a that's a that's pretty good. I'm. I'm excited for the, uh, the second part, so. Me, too. Yeah, I feel like it. Like I haven't even gotten to the juicy parts yet. So much. But yeah, we're going to wrap it up here. Make sure you go to our Instagram feed. We got a little updating to do on it, but yeah, just look up the day's dumpster fire and Instagram were there and I got, well, not I, but we also have our website, the Day's Dumpster Fire, CNN.com. So make sure you hit that up. We're going to be updating that with a ton of new stuff. And then you can send us a text message or send us an email. So if you go to our we have a we have the link there where you can actually send us a text message. It's not very good to reply back on, but it is something that, hey, if you want to get a message straight to us and you want us to kind of you want to like kind of call us out on something in an episode. Yeah. Like, send us a text message and we'll do a bit of a shout out. Same thing with getting more and more people to subscribe. Make sure you are talking to people about the podcast. Bring it up. Bring it up. Put on a work meeting. I, I bring it up to my students parents. It's like, yeah, you know, within reason. So like, don't be afraid to bring this up, especially if you are learning something from this or you know, if you're younger and your perception about how something works has changed or or how you feel like, especially emotionally, if you feel like you're a failure. No, no. This podcast is designed to make you very proud of the things that you've accomplished and enjoy your wins. Yeah, go out there, tell people, bring it up. When you're carpooling, it just yeah, just direct people to to our website. We can be found on iTunes. We can be found on Spotify and Amazon and YouTube. Now. So we're, we're everywhere. And don't be afraid to, to just put yourself out there by putting us out there. And then lastly, I've got a interesting episode I'm working on. Not as big in scope as as care is here, but whenever you have former Nazi scientists making medications for pregnant women to help them feel better, yeah, you can pretty much assume that it's not going to go well. So that's what that's what I've got. Uh, coming up, I may also have my daughter on that one. We may even have déja back. I know she's been off for a little bit, I think. Yeah, I think she's kind of wrapping up some training and all the fun stuff, so she should be coming back, and I will try to have my oldest daughter on and. Yeah, that's. That's all I got. Karen Ju you want to add anything like your artwork? Yeah. I mean, I guess if you want to check out the art that I've got going on, you can see the the girl Instagrams that comes Small's dot drawers. I try to make art for. Episodes that come out here and there. I do have some updating to do. I have some French Revolution stuff that I got to put up there and as a prize. Yeah. You're also. Yeah. You're you're also doing stuff for family and. Yeah, it's Christmas season, so now I'm doing Christmas presents. Plus my Bob Dylan drawing for myself. So. Yes, there may be an air picture to. Oh, God, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That would ruin my reputation as an artist. There is no imagery on that profile. Oh, no, no, not not on your profile, but, like, maybe on our website. Why? Well, No. I don't I don't know, like find a picture of, like, Richard Nixon writing a battle ostrich. Like I. Oh, boy. That's a discussion for another day. There are there are some podcasts that, like everything they do is AI generated. And that is a huge argument. If you're not in the podcasting community, that is a big topic right now. Is is it okay to have a I designed your entire show? Which Yeah. I don't know that this feels weird to me. I don't like it. I personally don't like. I'm not going to get in at that. I have my thoughts and feelings about. So, yeah. Thanks for joining us. Stay tuned for part two of the Vietnam War fire and yeah, we will catch you next time. We. Eat this. Forget to say keep it hot mess. Yeah. But.